Breeder and HCM?

[Mangosoccer11]

Hi everyone!!

Soo I've been wanting to buy a sphynx from this super nice breeder. She is not a scam, and she says that she wants a good family to buy her kittens. She really cares about the well being of her kittens. I've seen several pictures of her kittens and her nice house so I know shes not a scam. I've seen pictures of my kitten's loving parents. The parents look healthy and happy.

Its $1,100 dollars for my kitten (my profile picture is a picture of him).

In the contract my breeder sent me, it says that she is not responsible for any health problems that the kitten has when I own the kitten.

So this breeder sounds great, right?

I'm not sure...

She says that her parent cats have never been tested for HCM. I'm texting my breeder right now. She says, "I have researched HCM also when I was buying my two sphynx cats and found out that any type of cat can have it, and it's actually pretty rare. Its not a big deal really. Its just a heart murmur. Like an irregular heart beat." Her sphynx cats have had litters before and all the kittens have grown up healthy...

I'm so confused. I read on a thread that HCM papers are important to have.

Is the breeder right about HCM? Is HCM a little heart murmur?

Shes such a nice and caring person. I want to trust her...

Does anyone have any advice? A little heart murmur doesn't seem like a big deal.

I was planning on sending her a check of $1,100 dollars tomorrow... Should I not buy my kitty?

 

[sphynxie]

I will let the more experienced members give you advice on this but I would want a breeder who scanned for HCM because that's the responsible thing to do. If I'm not mistaken, HCM is a big deal and not just a normal health problem.

 

[Gullivers Keeper]

My cats came with aa 5 year health contract.. One one of them does have hcm, I sure wish it was just a murmur. This does not sound like a responsible breeder

 

[ckutkuhn7]

The severity of HCM can vary and kitties can survive with it for quite sometime with it, as long as they are treated. "Daily medication most times".

I've never had a kitty with HCM but one of our very own Lair members today just lost her Sphynx to HCM. I've had cats all of my life and never heard of this condition, I learned all about it in 1 day here on the Lair. It is very serious and cannot be taken lightly.

Yes, even if her breeding cats scan negative and you purchase one of those kittens, that doesn't mean your kitty won't develope HCM in 1, 2, 3, etc years. It can happen, its something to be aware of. Just because you purchase a kitten from a HCM FREE breeding program doesnt mean there are promises it won't happen in the future. No matter what its a chance you have to take with this breed.

 

[Shauntay]

Although it is true all breeds of cats can develop HCM, some breeds have a higher prevalence of it. Sphynx, Maine Coons, Birmans. HCM is in no way a heart murmur, a cat can be HCM positive without a heart murmur, or have a murmur without HCM. They are not linked. HCM is a thickening of the left ventricle of the heart and it is fatal. A cat can seem outwardly normal and then mysteriously die at 1 or 2 or 3 or 6 etc. It is genetic, and considered to be dominant, so only one parent needs to be carrying a copy of the gene to pass it on to kittens. It also shows variable expression, and in the Sphynx breed, we seem to see the devestating results slightly later in life, around 5 years of age. HCM must be scanned for, it is not a question of opinion, it is a neccesity in breeding Sphynx. For this breeder to pass you false information and make light of a disgusting and heart breaking (literally) disease is infuriating. I just lost the LOVE OF MY LIFE today as a direct result of HCM. Douchie threw several blood clots a few weeks ago. This is very common in HCM pos cats, it is also excrutiating. He then had a heart attack and later a stroke. Both caused by HCM, and was in Heart Failure the past few weeks. This entire thing has been the most devestating experience of my life, and although I dont want to come across as an HCM nazzi, I wouldnt touch a breeder who doesnt scan with a ten foot pole. Especially one who lies about the severity of the disease. I started my journey to breed specifically because of the heart ache I have dealt with in buying a sphynx from a "breeder" who falsified scans.

 

[Melonie]

I have lost one kitten to suspected complications of HCM and I have one other HCM positive cat and my vet bills have been WAY more then your purchase price. I would NOT get a cat from this person.

 

[Mews2much]

I agree with the others.
Please do not buy this kitten.
She does not know her facts on HCM.
HCM is a big deal and many sphynx die from it.
Scans are very important.

 

[havingalook]

It wouldn't be so bad if she didn't know and was willing to learn, but she's not being honest with you about its severity.

I'm the first to put my hand up and say at one point I didn't know about HCM, but now I do and I scan for it. I see too much heartbreak on here due to HCM, scanning is a necessity (even if it doesn't cover you 100%)

Ignorance is one thing, downplaying it and lying is not excusable.

 

[ypvsypvs]

You breed, you scan. Simple as that.
It's not only a matter of the kittens you are about to get but as a breeder one of the main issues should be to help create a healthy breed in a bigger sence as well and for a breed with a known problem parents should always get scanned, No exceptions, cheap or expensive.

 

[gizmo6370]

I wouldn't sent her a check....hell no!
In my opinion....a breeder should do anything to make sure that he/she is breeding healthy cats ( i know it's no guarantee that there will never be a hcm positive cat in the lines ) but you have to do the best you can....
Hcm a slight heart murmur...yeah right....i've heard of so many kitty's who dropped dead at 1, 2, or 3 years old....and that's just a slight heart murmur...uhuh....
Anything to sell kittens....
What do you think what the stress of pregnancy or the delivery will do to a hcm positive mother....or what stress of the mating will do to a positive stud...shame on that breeder for telling you that it is something minor....
I would say...take your money and run....go and find a breeder who scans....and who will give you a health guarantee....
It will hopefully spare you a lot of heartache...
Just my 2 cents...

 

[Inferno12]

I agree with everyone here and I have seen the heartache (Shauntay) that HCM can cause. Also a vet tech at my vets office lost the love of her life (her first Sphynx) due to HCM. Its a horrible and nasty disease and for breeder of all people to down play this disease is terrible.

Im so glad that you asked this question because I had no idea about HCM until AFTER I got my Johnny. Thankfully I have a wonderful breeder that I found out scanned for HCM.

Also, I dont think you want a cat that has no guarantee. The breeder obviously doesnt want any responsibility after she sells the cat.

Just because you have seen the house doesnt mean its the best. I have heard of a couple of basement breeders that the house looked wonderful but the cages full of cats were tucked away in the basement. Im not saying this is the case but just be away. From what I hear from you, I would look elsewhere. I dont want to see anyone go through the pain and heartache that Shauntay is going through.

 

[marlene]

Hi everyone!!

Soo I've been wanting to buy a sphynx from this super nice breeder. She is not a scam, and she says that she wants a good family to buy her kittens. She really cares about the well being of her kittens. I've seen several pictures of her kittens and her nice house so I know shes not a scam. I've seen pictures of my kitten's loving parents. The parents look healthy and happy.

Its $1,100 dollars for my kitten (my profile picture is a picture of him).

In the contract my breeder sent me, it says that she is not responsible for any health problems that the kitten has when I own the kitten.

So this breeder sounds great, right?

I'm not sure...

She says that her parent cats have never been tested for HCM. I'm texting my breeder right now. She says, "I have researched HCM also when I was buying my two sphynx cats and found out that any type of cat can have it, and it's actually pretty rare. Its not a big deal really. Its just a heart murmur. Like an irregular heart beat." Her sphynx cats have had litters before and all the kittens have grown up healthy...

I'm so confused. I read on a thread that HCM papers are important to have.

Is the breeder right about HCM? Is HCM a little heart murmur?

Shes such a nice and caring person. I want to trust her...

Does anyone have any advice? A little heart murmur doesn't seem like a big deal.

I was planning on sending her a check of $1,100 dollars tomorrow... Should I not buy my kitty?

Here's my 2 cents, for what it's worth. I'm not a sphynx breeder, have never bred them but have extensive experience with breeding Maine Coons and a ton of experience with HCM, having had 7 cats that died from it.

First of all, your breeder is talking out her ass. That's putting it bluntly. Anyone who says that HCM is just a heart murmur is a)lying cause they have no idea what HCM is, b)lying in an attempt to maximize the money brought in by their breeding program {aka trying to make a fast buck or big profit}, or c)is so damn clueless that they don't deserve to be called a "breeder" by any stretch of the imagination. If your breeder had spent more than 5 minutes on her so-called HCM research she would have realized that it isn't a heart murmur and that it's deadly. Make no mistake about it. If a cat has HCM that disease WILL KILL the cat sooner or later (later being within a year or two) - sadly, usually sooner. There are no exceptions to this rule; HCM kills.

Your breeder is not a nice and caring person. A nice and caring person would have spent the money to have their breeding stock scanned for HCM. A nice and caring person would have cared whether or not you suffer the heartbreak of an HCM kitty and would have tried to minimize the chances of it happening to you. A nice and caring person wouldn't have tried to downplay the severity and importance of HCM in sphynx cats.

Lastly, having seen pictures is no proof against scamming. Even touring a breeder's house is no proof against it (cats can be living in cages in the basement or out in a barn). And a breeder having a real nice house... let me ask you this: do you honestly think kittens are raised underfoot in a "really nice house?" Heck no, those kittens are relegated to being locked up in a room or in cages because the breeder doesn't want their really nice house to get messed up by kitten claws, puke, and poop. I'd definately ask questions if I went to a breeder's home to buy a kitten that was (supposedly) raised underfoot and there were no scratches on the coffee table or end tables, no scratches on the arms of the sofa - you get my drift.

$1,100 is nothing, it's not even a drop in the bucket, compared to the cost of caring for an HCM+ kitty. And though buying a kitten from scanned parents isn't a 100% guarantee the kitten will never get it, it can damn sure lower the odds of it.

So after all this ranting and raving, my advice: Keep your money and find a real breeder, one who at least knows about HCM, is willing to tell you the truth about HCM, and scans her cats for HCM. I'm currently on a waiting list for a kitten and wouldn't dream of buying from someone who didn't fit that bill.

 

[emmysmom10]

When I adopted my Emmy 2 years ago I was very under informed, and had no clue what hcm was. I do now and its no laughing matter! I am about to get a second baby and refuse to go back to my origional breeder because he is not as wonderful as I thought and failed to give out much information, and he's a vet!!! The new breeder I'm dealing with has a 2 year health garuntee and 5 years on hcm...I would never go with a breeder that doesn't stand behind their kitties health again.
Rest assured you will find another baby that is just as precious and has a breeder momma that respects you and their babies! Good luck, let us know what you decide.

 

[Bella07]

Repeat post...

 

[Bella07]

I'm sorry... I can't even imagine how difficult this must be for you, especially after coming up with name ideas and falling in love with his photos! But, I wholeheartedly agree with the others. I won't even consider buying from a breeder who won't scan, much less not back up her kittens with a guarantee. Plain and Simple...

 

[holly_savage]

I agree, that you should really, seriously reconsider buying this kitten.

I can see her point of view(not that I agree with it) on the one side, that even with scanning there is no guarantee that it won't happen down the line, but as a breeder, I would think a person would want to know and do everything possible to avoid propagating those lines that seem to carry it.
If every breeder keeps their cats scanned and healthy, it may eventually be removed from the Sphynx lines in general, and that is what any reputable breeder should want to happen.
The whole idea behind breeding purepred / pedigreed animals, is to "PERFECT" or "IMPROVE" the breed to match what the breed standards are and the only way to do that is to be aware of all the potential problems and try to ensure they are "bred out" of the lines.

Good luck on making your decision, and know that we are all here to offer our opinions and advice (we all love to do that! lol)

 

[Fester]

I think a guarantee is no indicator of quality...Correct information is, and reputation. There are a few people here who know various good and bad breeders.- Knowing what I do now, I don't think I would buy a sphynx from anyone that hadn't been vouched for by someone I contacted on my own, not just referrals from the breeder.

the sad thing about a guarantee is that a dishonest person can easily promise the moon since they have no intention of honoring that promise anyway...whereas an honest person doesn't ever want to promise more than they can handle.

I think that being able to meet the person and their cats before you have any money on the line would be ideal, but being an uncommon breed makes that difficult at best.
I wish you luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

[danimcd]

mango,
i was like you before looking into sphynx, not knowing all the facts etc. and i agree 100% with the folks here on the lair. your little one looks sooo cute and adorable!

and i know you would probably be heart broken not to get him now... however...
if you do get him i feel that it is a huge risk, and that you might have your heart break even more later IF he does develop it. and he may very well not... but like the others said it is more prevalent in sphynx...

and you are paying a lot of money, i paid more for mine, BUT, they came with a 5 year "warranty" for the HCM, their parents are scanned with the results posted on line, and their first HCM scan at 1 year old back with the breeder is free.... like everyone has mentioned, responsible breeding... it's a major thing. and your breeder doesn't sound responsible or at the very least not well informed.

if i were you, i wouldn't send the cheque.

I'm going to PM you later btw.... lol

-Dani

 

[for_serious]

Any reputable breeder will scan and give you a health guarantee.

 

[sphynxie]

Any word on the decision? Did you mail payment?

 

[MissMySphynxBoys]

I hope everything worked out the way it was supposed to, Mangosoccer11.

 

[pooner]

I would think hard about buying from this breeder because she is very wrong about HCM. My beautiful little boy has HCM he was diagnosed in June at the age of 1yr. It was so devastating, here we were taking him for his one year check thinking he was a healthy kitty and the next thing you know I'm taking him to a cardiologist for a echocardiogram. He now takes atenolol twice a day and needs 6 month check ups for bloodwork and cardio ,which were more frequent as he first started the medication. This disease is expensive and time consuming as well as heartbreaking. The cardiologist predicts he may live to be 8 years old if we are lucky but it just depends on his heart.
My breeder did screen his parents and all her other breeder cats and had never had a HCM cat in her litters, he is the first. She was absolutely devistated to hear of my cats condition and she immediately scheduled his parents for retesting.

 

[gizmo6370]

I would think hard about buying from this breeder because she is very wrong about HCM. My beautiful little boy has HCM he was diagnosed in June at the age of 1yr. It was so devastating, here we were taking him for his one year check thinking he was a healthy kitty and the next thing you know I'm taking him to a cardiologist for a echocardiogram. He now takes atenolol twice a day and needs 6 month check ups for bloodwork and cardio ,which were more frequent as he first started the medication. This disease is expensive and time consuming as well as heartbreaking. The cardiologist predicts he may live to be 8 years old if we are lucky but it just depends on his heart.
My breeder did screen his parents and all her other breeder cats and had never had a HCM cat in her litters, he is the first. She was absolutely devistated to hear of my cats condition and she immediately scheduled his parents for retesting.

Sorry to hear the bad news about your boy...hopefully he can stay with you and your family for a very long time {hugs}...

 

[Avasmommy]

My breeder that I found scans for HCM, and shows the reports of the scan. My kitty is going to cost me 1300, but will come with a 3 year health guarantee, spay and micro chip.

 

[Gullivers Keeper]

I would think hard about buying from this breeder because she is very wrong about HCM. My beautiful little boy has HCM he was diagnosed in June at the age of 1yr. It was so devastating, here we were taking him for his one year check thinking he was a healthy kitty and the next thing you know I'm taking him to a cardiologist for a echocardiogram. He now takes atenolol twice a day and needs 6 month check ups for bloodwork and cardio ,which were more frequent as he first started the medication. This disease is expensive and time consuming as well as heartbreaking. The cardiologist predicts he may live to be 8 years old if we are lucky but it just depends on his heart.
My breeder did screen his parents and all her other breeder cats and had never had a HCM cat in her litters, he is the first. She was absolutely devistated to hear of my cats condition and she immediately scheduled his parents for retesting.

That's how I found out about Gulliver, I took him for his shots at 15 months and the doc heard a murmur, so off to the Cardiologist (400$) and now he's on Atenolol and Benazepril once a day and another echo in the spring to find out how he's doing right around his 2 year birthday (he will be two May 19th)