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Elf?... just curious

NightSpidy

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Also he is a stud :BigSmile: Any questions about him I would be happy to answer. I also have pictures up. I think the curled ears just make my sphynx look that much more unique. I love him just the way he is.

What are your goals for breeding? Is there a specific type/standard you are trying to attain?
 

ElGatoLoco

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I heard all about the elf controversy. Personally I think it's just a fight between two breeders who were originally working together and have since parted ways. They are both trying to take credit for the breed. My breeder has an elf and a dwelf. I have not heard of any health issues but that doesn't mean there isn't any. I find them intriguing but I don't prefer them necessarily. I think most of us feel that way.
 

Bella07

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Also he is a stud :BigSmile:
Any questions about him I would be happy to answer. I also have pictures up.
I think the curled ears just make my sphynx look that much more unique. I love him just the way he is.

Do you HCM scan? Are Elf's recognized by any cat registry, CFA/ TICA? If so, do you show your boy? I'm curious. Thank You!
 

Mews2much

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Yep there is a major fight between 2 breeders.
They can not be shown in CFA and I am not sure about TICA.
 

Maua_Peterbald

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Uhhh, I also like the pure Sphynx, they are so weird you don`t need to make them even more weird. I came across a page that offers "Hobbit" Sphynx like Bambino, Elf and Dwelf. For me its just making money on people who need to stand out of the crowd (and yes I am one of them, the rarer the better :Hysterical:) but I am afraid that this kind of eugenics has a really bad influence on the cat's health.
 

mysphynxzero

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What are your goals for breeding? Is there a specific type/standard you are trying to attain?

I actually had the breeder I bought him from request services from him due to him being so elegant, super sweet, and healthy. Zero has turned out to be show quality lol. I only bought him at pet quality so I feel super blessed to have such a pretty boy. I dont have breeding rightsa yet until my 2 year contract is up with my breeder. I will be gifted zeros breeding right at the end of the expiration of the contract.
She is using him for a stud to beautify and to strengthen the sphynx breed. the elf sphynx. Yes he has been scanned and is clear as have all of her elf cats come out clear.
 
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mysphynxzero

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Do you HCM scan? Are Elf's recognized by any cat registry, CFA/ TICA? If so, do you show your boy? I'm curious. Thank You!

Im not a breeder my self. Zero is actually show and breeding quality although he was only purchased as pet quality. Like I said be for I feel super blessed to have him. No CFA/TICA has not registered the elf shynx to be in the sphynx category but they do allow showing them under ''New Traits'' for the sphynx.
Hopefully one day they will be recognized for their outstanding health and beauty. Also for their loving qualities. I feel zero loves me and acts exactly the same as all other sphynx I have met.

No, I dont show him.One reason is because somehow my poor baby broke his tail so I think that means he isn't show-able now.... Another is I only bought him to be a companion though and because I am close with my breeder we have formed a 2 yr contract for zero to provide her cattery with stud services. Only her cattery. After 2 years she will gift me breedings rights. Zero is scanned clear of HCM as are all of my breeder's, Angela, elf cats.
 

Mews2much

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you are right you can not show a cat that has a damaged tail.
There has never been a Elf at any of the TICA show I have gone to so far.



 

mysphynxzero

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you are right you can not show a cat that has a damaged tail.
There has never been a Elf at any of the TICA show I have gone to so far.




Its because the breed IS so controversial....I think people need to do their research. This hybrid isn't unstable as long as the bloodlines are correct. But its not an uncommon thing unfortunately for people to cut corners when breeding and using cats with similar curly ears but too many extra mutations like extra toes or bobtails. Then the whole reason they branched out with this hybrid is being destroyed.
 

Mews2much

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I show in TICA and CFA.
Sometimes when I show my sphynx in CFA people say they should not be allowed.
I am also going to start showing my new Bombay next month which is a rare breed.
 

mysphynxzero

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I show in TICA and CFA.
Sometimes when I show my sphynx in CFA people say they should not be allowed.
I am also going to start showing my new Bombay next month which is a rare breed.

I dont understand that though. Isnt everyones reasoning for breeding and working so hard to screen their cats and keep their lines pure to better the breed?? The people who started the elf cat hybrid had the same intention. Their idea was to take the American curl and breed it with the sphynx to obtain a spynx with the curled ears, sturdier body, and stronger health of the American curl.

The American curl only has that one mutation it is passing on, the curly ears. It was natural to the curl itself. However the people who use the highlander and highland lynx are causing an issue with health and extra mutations. THeir reasons are to lure people with exotic looking pets. Not to better the sphynx. :Cry:
 

Mews2much

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It was some Persian breeders that said that.
They think sphynx were bred to have no hair when it was a natural mutation.
I know some American Curl breeders.
In fact I will see them at the cat clubs christmas party tomorrow night.
When I start breeding it will be to better the breed.
Also I only buy from breeders that care about the breed.
There are so many bad breeders out there.




 

mysphynxzero

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It was some Persian breeders that said that.
They think sphynx were bred to have no hair when it was a natural mutation.
I know some American Curl breeders.
In fact I will see them at the cat clubs christmas party tomorrow night.
When I start breeding it will be to better the breed.
Also I only buy from breeders that care about the breed.
There are so many bad breeders out there.





Yeah I had a lady comment against zero saying ''oh how cruel of you people to breed a cat with no hair!''
All I could say to her was '' Its extremely rude to point out features of a breed of animal she so clearly knows nothing about.'' I then proceeded to tell her to do some research and educate herself or learn to hold her tongue.

I wonder what the American curl breeder's view will be.
I agree. There are some pretty bad breeders out there just trying to make a pretty penny off these beautiful creatures. The lady I bought my zero from is truly in the breeding game for her pure love of this animal. I thought about breeding awhile ago...but Im not at a good point in my life to. I have a young child and I couldn't possibly afford the expenses of keeping and running an excellent cattery. I love researching the sphynx an elf cat hybrid but I don't know everything thats for sure.:Smile:
 

Mews2much

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I have been showing alters but have been offered whole sphynx now.
Hvae you ever been to cat shows?
I took my Bombay to the last TICA show as exhibtion because she was 3 days to young to show and everyone loved her.
Sorry you had comments mad also.
 

mysphynxzero

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I have been showing alters but have been offered whole sphynx now.
Hvae you ever been to cat shows?
I took my Bombay to the last TICA show as exhibtion because she was 3 days to young to show and everyone loved her.
Sorry you had comments mad also.

No Ive never been but would LOVE to go. That would be a great experience to say the least! Bombays are sooo gorgeous. Ive never had the pleasure of meeting one though. I bet she will do great at the show if everyone loved her as exhibtion.
No worries about that old lady. When you get away from the norm that everyone is used to you cant really not expect the bad comments to come just as often as the good or suprised. I have an extra weirdo on top of that lol :ThumbsUp::Laugh:
 

Mews2much

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You should go to a show and see if you like it.
All the Burmese breeders had to see here and one of the TICA judges that shows a Bombay saw her.







 

mysphynxzero

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You should go to a show and see if you like it.
All the Burmese breeders had to see here and one of the TICA judges that shows a Bombay saw her.






I might get to sometime. My hubs is in the military so I dont know if we could get time off to go or not. Wow sounds like your little lady was popular!!
 

Sleepyheadkitten

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I am going to commend you, first, for thinking so highly of your breeder, but a couple of statements have raised a red flag for me...

The American curl only has that one mutation it is passing on, the curly ears. It was natural to the curl itself. However the people who use the highlander and highland lynx are causing an issue with health and extra mutations. THeir reasons are to lure people with exotic looking pets. Not to better the sphynx. :Cry:

Okay, excuse me, but the reason why someone decided to breed a curly eared Sphynx was NOT to improve the gene pool. THAT is why TICA allows outcrosses to DSH- which does not, in fact, have curly ears. They chose to breed a Sphynx to an American Curl for the same reason Highlander breeders are producing Highlanders- because it is an 'exotic looking pet'.

And as many shows as I have been to- I HAVE IN FACT SEEN Highlanders in the Preliminary New Breed ring being judged, but never have I seen an Elf.

Where are you getting your facts that the Highlander breeders are producing sick cats just to make a profit? Because I'm betting you heard that from your breeder. It is a pet peeve of mine when one breed points its fingers at another breed (or new trait, as is) and tries to say something negatively about THAT breed in order to get any questions off of their back.

Also, at less then 2 years of age- you cannot say at all that your cat will not develop HCM NOR can you say that the Elf 'breed' (which it is not a breed if it's being shown as a New Trait- then it is simply a Sphynx with the Elf trait) is a healthier breed of cat then any other breed.

I have no issue with the new trait or new breeds- as long as they are done CONSCIENTIOUSLY and HONESTY and with good intentions. So far, I am seeing good intentions, but the honesty? It's not honest for a breeder to try to sell an AC x Sphynx outcross as 'healthier then the Sphynx'- it is honest to say, "We liked this trait and we feel AC is a good outcross'. Is is even honest to say that the outcrosses are CUTE and people like them! It is not honest to try to sell them as 'healthier then Sphynx'.
 

mysphynxzero

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I am going to commend you, first, for thinking so highly of your breeder, but a couple of statements have raised a red flag for me...



Okay, excuse me, but the reason why someone decided to breed a curly eared Sphynx was NOT to improve the gene pool. THAT is why TICA allows outcrosses to DSH- which does not, in fact, have curly ears. They chose to breed a Sphynx to an American Curl for the same reason Highlander breeders are producing Highlanders- because it is an 'exotic looking pet'.

And as many shows as I have been to- I HAVE IN FACT SEEN Highlanders in the Preliminary New Breed ring being judged, but never have I seen an Elf.

Where are you getting your facts that the Highlander breeders are producing sick cats just to make a profit? Because I'm betting you heard that from your breeder. It is a pet peeve of mine when one breed points its fingers at another breed (or new trait, as is) and tries to say something negatively about THAT breed in order to get any questions off of their back.

Also, at less then 2 years of age- you cannot say at all that your cat will not develop HCM NOR can you say that the Elf 'breed' (which it is not a breed if it's being shown as a New Trait- then it is simply a Sphynx with the Elf trait) is a healthier breed of cat then any other breed.

I have no issue with the new trait or new breeds- as long as they are done CONSCIENTIOUSLY and HONESTY and with good intentions. So far, I am seeing good intentions, but the honesty? It's not honest for a breeder to try to sell an AC x Sphynx outcross as 'healthier then the Sphynx'- it is honest to say, "We liked this trait and we feel AC is a good outcross'. Is is even honest to say that the outcrosses are CUTE and people like them! It is not honest to try to sell them as 'healthier then Sphynx'.



Indeed my facts have come from my breeder and I would be happy to pm her website if you would like to cite me. From what I have both read and heard the American curl is a very sturdy and strong cat which is part of the whole reason they mix the two. The original people did want the curl ears but also wanted to better the sphynx if possible. I never said highlanders weren't shown. American curls are shown too. and either way mixed with highlander or AC its still referred to as an elf cat. And like I said I think people dont show them because everyones is would say horrible comments about their cats. TICA allows them to be shown period and that is a fact. Whether anyone has or not is an entirely different matter. Also I DID NOT say that my cat will never develop HCM nor did I say any elf cats wouldn't. What I said was my cat is clear and all her cats are scanned clear thus far. Breeders of the elf cat want HCM to go away and they have some hope that one day it will. And what if this simple genetic trait makes it go away? Maybe then everyone may actually commend those breeders rather than trying to rip their hearts out for trying to help the breed. The other person in this post I was talking with even stated she had heard breeders of Persian cats accusing that sphynx's hairlessness to be an unnatural mutation. We know that isn't true at all. Everyone has their own BIASED opinion. I know my breeder believes in this cause an so do I.

Another thing is I stated people could ask me questions so im not ''trying to get questions off my back''.
Angela doesn't breed her cats for profit. She believes in this. Im most certainly am not pointing fingers at certain breeders. Im am stating facts that I have learned. I already made it clear. I DO NOT KNOW EVERYTHING.
 

Sleepyheadkitten

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No- you don't breed Elves either, at this point in time- but whenever someone commends their breed and then points a finger at another breed- that is shady. There are NOT enough Sphynxes with the Elf trait to say whether or not you are creating healthy animals- just like there are not enough Highlanders being produced.

This is for EVERYONE breeding ANY cats with ANY new traits...

The excuse that people won't show a new breed/new trait because someone might say something bad about this new trait or breed is just that- an excuse. FOR EVERY NEW BREED brought into TICA, there have been naysayers and people who hate the thought of a new breed. I can't even count the number of negative things said towards Bengals (the number one breed registered in TICA) or Savannahs!

You either get in the show hall and show- and try to get your trait/breed recognized, or you don't- and you breed simply to make money.

And then this is for Zero's Mom-

I'm not quite understanding how you equate breeding a cat with cute ears with a Sphynx would 'cure' HCM. Could you clarify this please?

Look, Zero is cute as a button- and that I will agree. But I do not agree with introducing new traits and then being afraid to take the slack that comes along with it and getting your butt into the showring (the breeders- not the pet buyer) and I do not agree with using a health tactic as a selling point. There is NO PROOF these cats are healthier.

Chances are- American Curls carry HCM as well in their lines- and from a quick search online, it is apparent that American Curls DO carry for PKD.

Is your Elf breeder testing for PKD before breeding her cats?
 

mysphynxzero

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No- you don't breed Elves either, at this point in time- but whenever someone commends their breed and then points a finger at another breed- that is shady. There are NOT enough Sphynxes with the Elf trait to say whether or not you are creating healthy animals- just like there are not enough Highlanders being produced.

This is for EVERYONE breeding ANY cats with ANY new traits...

The excuse that people won't show a new breed/new trait because someone might say something bad about this new trait or breed is just that- an excuse. FOR EVERY NEW BREED brought into TICA, there have been naysayers and people who hate the thought of a new breed. I can't even count the number of negative things said towards Bengals (the number one breed registered in TICA) or Savannahs!

You either get in the show hall and show- and try to get your trait/breed recognized, or you don't- and you breed simply to make money.

And then this is for Zero's Mom-

I'm not quite understanding how you equate breeding a cat with cute ears with a Sphynx would 'cure' HCM. Could you clarify this please?

Look, Zero is cute as a button- and that I will agree. But I do not agree with introducing new traits and then being afraid to take the slack that comes along with it and getting your butt into the showring (the breeders- not the pet buyer) and I do not agree with using a health tactic as a selling point. There is NO PROOF these cats are healthier.

Chances are- American Curls carry HCM as well in their lines- and from a quick search online, it is apparent that American Curls DO carry for PKD.

Is your Elf breeder testing for PKD before breeding her cats?



I do not know If she scans for PKD or not. But I do know there hasnt been any negatives come from breeding the elf cats either not in her cattery at least. I do not breed cats im learning hun. Ive only even had zero for 6 and 1/2 months. Sure I have wanted a sphynx for years but Im among the many young learners about breeding and genetics and other things. Im saying what I have read. Im sure I may read other things that change my mind just as Im sure could change yours or anyone elses. If you want to help me learn or have a friendly debate Im game. But I do not wish to be put down for things Ive already stated Im not even 100% on. You cant exactly treat me like well rounded breeder cuz im not one plain and simple.

Thankyou for the compliments. I do not know if angela has showed or not or why if she hasnt. Maybe I might ask. But If I could show zero I would. I think he is gorgeous and I believe he should be recognized as something more than just a sphynx with curly ears. As for the Bengals me and my family actually are planning to purchase one in the coming year. :ThumbsUp:
 

Shauntay

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I personally do not mind the look of the elf trait, but do prefer our true Sphynx. Aside from the fact our Sphynx appear hairless, their ears are their most striking attribute IMO. My issue with outcrossing to develope new phenotypical traits in Sphynx is due to the breeds relatively small gene pool. IMO anyone with an interest in Sphynx should have an interest in the breeds health and breeders as a collective should be trying to improve the Sphynx health, not create novelty traits.

HCM is the most prevalent heart disease in ALL cats, world wide. Every single breed of cat can develope HCM. American curls are in no way immune.

You mentioned zero had a tail kink, this is a serious genetic flaw and in itself would deam the cat not show quality.

( please excuse me for not quoting your paragraph as I am typing on my iPhone and it's just too complicated for my tired mind at the moment :) )
you mentioned the genetic mutation that creates the curled ear may impact HCM prevalence, I don't mean to sound rude but that is absurd. If you obtained this ridiculous notion from your breeder, I would seriously reconsider your opinion of her. That is not how genetics work. Throughout my seven years of breeding research, I took two separate genetics courses. I felt it was paramount having a basic understanding of genetics in order to breed. The Manx mutation, the Rex mutation, the curl mutation or the Hr mutation will not affect the possible hundreds of HCM genetic markers.

On a side note, the AC is not a robust breed, they are of medium build and more elegantly shaped then our cobbier Sphynx. So you will not get a sturdier body from breeding with the curl. Average weight of a male AC is about ten pounds, next to our 13 lbs Sphynx males, I'd say the Sphynx is lending to the sturdier build then the curl.

Is their a written standard to the elf trait? Any similarities in the show quality curl degree of the AC or is it sufficient to just have any type of curl?

All in all, I don't see the elf trait being detrimental to our Sphynx other then taking away from the gene pool. We already have our issues with that sneaky Devon Rex allele popping up when you least expect it! But next to the bambinos, I welcome the elf, I just wish we could hold off the breeds developement until the Sphynx themselves are in a good place genetically.
 
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