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Help with info on ketamine!!

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I have heard so much about not using ketamine in the sphynx. I've been having a hard time convinceing my vet on the subject. Anyone have good sites I can use for info. Thanks!
 

ilovemysphynx

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I just had this conversation with my vet because both of ours where just fixed, he told me that in any cat they do not use ketamine any more, it is used more on large unruley animals.
If there is any heart condition there is a good chance the cat will not wake up. It is better to use something else.
Just tell your vet this is how you feel, you should not need proof.
 
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I don't know of proof but I know I've read threads on here with more information on it. I do know that my vet stated Ketamine is very old school way of sedating and not to use it on sphynx at all. She also stated that it's best to not use it on any cats.
I am thinking your vet needs some continuing education courses?? Not trying to be rude but, your vet needs to be willing to listen to you and to his/her colleagues.

I know NakedNinja's Gabe was given ketamine and he had very strange reactions to it and was lucky he survived.
 

ElGatoLoco

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My breeder must have told me 50 times, do not use ketamine. I took Ball to the SPCA to have his procedure and they didn't use it. When I came to pick him up, he was back to his old self and showed no signs of discomfort. I think he took the surgery way better than I would have.
 

MissMySphynxBoys

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As the others have already stated, you should not have to convince your vet not to use ketamine; he should be willing (and eager) to play it safe.
Many vets do not have first hand experience with Sphynx, but they all should be willing to listen to you and do their research. Trust is very important for a forming a great relationship with your vet. If you don't trust or value your vet's advice then you might want to look into another vet.
 

Nofuratu

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Here is a link to the following article and if you read onwards you will see how it applies to Sphynx ...not just Devon Rex
http://www.kaymarshall.com/sphynx/Houard_Ketamine1992_en.pdf

Anesthesia of the Rex Devon Cats: Attention, Careful!!!
From the doctor of veterinary medicine Michel Houard
Since several Rex Devon have been victims in these past years of grave accidents due to anesthesia, in France as well as in the Netherlands, it seemed important to us to speak about it in our first newsletter (“Chat M’interex”, nr. 1, July 1992), since every cat will be anesthetized at least once during its lifetime.
It is imperative to underscore that in no case the veterinarians who performed the anesthesia were accused and that these accidents apparently only happen in the Rex Devon and may be due to the fact that the Devon’s carry the “spasticity” gene.
(*1) Recent studies performed at the end of the 90’s (note by translator: that seems odd given that it says above that this is from a newsletter from July 1992) show that we are dealing indeed with a gene very closely related to spasticity.
But it’s best to leave the word to Dr. Houard:
“Regularly, we hear that the Rex Devon cats have certain incidents (“anesthesia, the intervention weakened them”), or anesthetic accidents (“he didn’t tolerate the anesthesia or the intervention”).
Anesthesia is a medical act which always has inherent risks, minimal in all animals in good health, but higher in the (*2) Rex Devon even in perfect health due to frequent acute or sub acute accidents which always appear to have the same characteristic scenario.
The acute case happens at the moment when the cat awakens and manifests itself in convulsions, hyper-excitation, and subsequent very fast hyperglycemia and hypothermia. Death happens within a few hours.
The sub-acute case happens 24 to 48 hours after anesthesia. The most characteristic element is progressive, intense muscular pain which is accompanied by an increase in (*3) creatinine phosphokinase (an enzyme which indicates muscular involvement and which can be multiplied by 100 in these cats). At the same time there is hypothermia, hypoglycemia, uremia and hepatic involvement.
It seems that the nature of anesthesia is important in the triggering and progression of the crisis:
‐‐ Dutch veterinarians have noticed grave accidents with gas anesthetics (products and protocols were not specified). Today, we know that we are talking about halothane
Accidents are particularly severe with the use of Ketamine and products of the same family
On the other hand, pre-anesthetics don’t seem to be able to interfere in the process: xylazine, atropine, (*4) propionylpromazine have been used without change of frequency or gravity of the accidents.
The mechanism of these post-anesthetic crises has to my knowledge not yet been discovered. As far as I was able to get informed, all of the Rex Devon cats who have manifested such characteristic troubles during anesthesia, have a high probability of being carriers of the “spasticity gene”; it seems that this typical type of anesthetic accident is connected to the existence of this gene or one that is closely related which may explain the muscular spasms since “spasticity” is also a myopathy.
Anesthesia of the Rex Devon presents specific risks which need to be decreased by using an appropriate anesthetic protocol and by exercising an intense post-anesthetic supervision which would permit to intervene at the earliest moment possible.”
These anesthetic precautions are needed for all cats of the Rex type: Devon, Cornish, German and Selkirk. They also apply to Sphynx cats that were crossed with the Rex Devon in the beginning of the breeding process by Dr. Hernandez at the end of the 1960s, in order to settle certain breed characteristics such as nudity.
A nesthetics formally banned for the Rex and the Sphynx are:
Ketamine
D imalgene (*5)
issociative anesthetics:
‐ clorketam (*6)
‐‐‐ zoletil (*7)
G‐ halothane
as anesthetics:
Translation courtesy of Ingrid Straeter-Knowlen, DVM Veterinary Diagnostics and Cardiac Evaluations, Inc. Birmingham, Alabama
Notations | added by Kay Marshall
1. Note from translator regarding date: Question: Could this have been a typo where the newsletter author meant the late 80’s rather than the late 90’s? OR, perhaps the publication (Chat M’interex”, nr. 1, July 1992) that included Dr. Houard’s article been placed in a later publication and referenced? More reason to try and locate Dr. Houard or the publishers of the Chat M’interex newletter.
2. Creatinine phosphokinase: A chemical normally found in the muscle fibers that is released into the bloodstream when the muscles undergo damage and breakdown. Testing for it can prove the occurrence of a heart attack or other muscle damage. It used to be called creatine kinase. Reference: Answer.com | creatinine phosphokinase in medicine: Web Search Results from Answers.com
3. Rex / Sphynx genetic link: It has been theorized that Sphynx hairlessness might be produced by an allele of the same gene that produces the Devon Rex (re), with the Sphynx allele being incompletely dominant over the Devon allele and both recessive to the wild type. However a different genetic symbol (hr) is given to the Sphynx gene and it is more likely that these are different genes interacting with each other. Sphynx were at one time crossbred with Devon Rex, but unfortunately this led to the introduction of some genetic diseases and is now forbidden in most breed standards associations. Hereditary spasticity and Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy (a genetic heart defect) were introduced by the Devon Rex breed. Reference: Wikipedia.org
4. Propionylpromazine: (from Veterminarian Dictionary reference) A phenothiazine derivative used as a tranquilizer, usually in combination with methadone. Reference: Answers.com | propionylpromazine, propiopromazine: Definition from Answers.com
5. Imalgene: Contains a Ketamine base. Used for Dogs, cats, horses, sheep, goats, cattle, wild animals. All species: analgesia and anesthesia. Containment, interventions at high risk and general anesthesia.
Reference: consultavet: perros, gatos, caballos, loros, conejos, tortugas, iguanas
6. Trade name: Clorketam Veterinary: Ketamine Hydrochloride
Reference: http://drugs-about.com/drugs/clorketam-veterinary.html
7. Zoletil: (Zoletil-Virbac). This a fast-acting anesthetic which can be used in a wide range of species. It is a combination of two drugs - tiletamine (a ketamine-like drug) and zolazepam, which is closely related to diazepam.
Reference: http://www.adelaide.edu.au/ANZCCART/publications/fs_restraint.pdf
 

Candys

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Thank you Nofuratu for the very informative article. My vet still says that he has only lost one cat to ketamine in his 30 years of practice. This article explains the genetic spasticity.:ThumbsUp:
 
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Very good posts!!! They are all correct, you should not have to explain. I asked my vet not to use it and she was fine with it, she said ok I something else I can use.
Good Luck!!!
 

marlene

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I think it's fine that a vet questions why something shouldn't be used on an animal. But there's a difference between questioning and requiring "proof" to convince. Ultimately it boils down to you being the owner - the caregiver, the decision maker - and you shouldn't have to argue to be given care in a manner that makes you comfortable, so long as providing such care isn't illegal or unethical.

The problem with ketamine is that it causes nasty post-operative rebound hypertension. If a kitty has undiagnosed heart disease (usually hypertrophic cardiomyopathy) that hypertension further restricts blood return to an already-compromised heart. The side effect of having blood flow to the heart restricted is that the blood has to go somewhere, so it backs up into the nearest organs - the lungs. That causes two problems that are directly related to each other; congestive heart failure and flash pulmonary edema. Either of these are fatal by themselves. Imagine the effect of them combined.

Isoflurane is a gas anesthetic and is much safer because it doesn't cause the rebound hypertension and is shed by the body much more quickly than injected anesthetics.

I've lost two kitties to ketamine. I've also carried a cat with a broken leg out of an orthopedic surgeon's office because he wasn't receptive to my no-ketamine request. Nowadays the only reason vets use ketamine is because it's so cheap - not because it's proven to be safe on animals.
 
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Many years ago, I took my sphynx kitten in to get neutered. I was unaware at the time he had undiagnosed HCM, and they used ketamine on him. I lost him that day. It was awful, awful, awful and heartbreaking.

I would be flat out pushy with the vet and tell them no. Actually, you might want to look into some other vets that will listen to you. After my loss, I switched to a new vet, and they took strict guidelines from my cat's cardiologists before performing any surgeries. They are extremely careful with my sphynx's.
 

MissMySphynxBoys

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Rather than argue with idiots, I just put 'Ketamine allergy' on their intake paperwork if they have to go to someone other than Dr. Annie.

Marking the chart "Ketamine Allergy" should do the trick.



Many years ago, I took my sphynx kitten in to get neutered. I was unaware at the time he had undiagnosed HCM, and they used ketamine on him. I lost him that day. It was awful, awful, awful and heartbreaking.

So sorry to hear about this tragedy.
 
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Thank you everyone for your help. Unfortunatly it's the vet I work for and he is set in his ways and without proof I shouldn't be worried about using ketamine. Luckly there are other vets that work for him, but it just bothers me that I need proof or I'm wrong and shouldn't think this way. Anyways thanks again everyone. The allergy thing is a great idea, as well as using iso.
 

Mews2much

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My vet used Iso with Wrinkles.
Putting allergy may not work with your vet because you have already said not to use it.
I would not use him at all and go somewhere else.



 

bean406

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So, is Ketamine bad for ALL cats but just more dangerous for a sphynx? And is it only dangerous in certain doses?? I'm just curious. I can't help but keep thinking about my current vet saying they use a "kitty coktail" (yes I know this is spelled wrong but it "bleeped" me out for spelling it right, lol) that has measured amounts of each ingredient specific for the animals weight. If it's deadly for cats why would vets risk this?​
 
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It's a fairly safe drug to use, but it's just from what I heard that with sphynx it can be risky since some may have heart conditions that are not very present at that time. I could be wrong but that's just what I've heard.
 

Mews2much

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It is worse in sphynx and has killed other cats.
My friend lost to cornish rex male kittens to it when they were being altered.


 

Nofuratu

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So, is Ketamine bad for ALL cats but just more dangerous for a sphynx? And is it only dangerous in certain doses?? I'm just curious. I can't help but keep thinking about my current vet saying they use a "kitty coktail" (yes I know this is spelled wrong but it "bleeped" me out for spelling it right, lol) that has measured amounts of each ingredient specific for the animals weight. If it's deadly for cats why would vets risk this?​
Generally vets use ketamine mixed with valium injected I.V as an induction agent (knocks your cat out for a few mins so we can get a breathing tube down to hook up to gas anesthesia).
For cat neuters, because they only take 2 mins to do, vets will use ketamine/valium mix for the actual surgery.
1/2 hour or so, before using ket/val they inject another coctail" under the skin or in the musle which varies between clinics, but is usually a painkiller mixed with some other drugs that counteract the undesirable effects of anesthesia.
Ketamine is dangerous to Sphynx and Devon Rex (see article) but also to regular cats with heart problems...so it is a risk.
I had used Ket/val as an induction agent in cats for 13 yrs (literally thousands of times) and never had a death, just 1 cat with a bad reaction (it was overly sedated, took longer to wake up) and it was a purebred cat, not a devon or sphynx....
I worked with a vet for 5 yrs that I would repeatedly caution to use a lower dose on purebred cats, but he never listened...
He also prefered to use "thiopental" a thiobarbituate, (really old school and cheap) INSTEAD of ket/val.....(safer and more expensive than thiopental).
So although ketamine gets a bad rap with sphynx, devon rex and heart problem patients.....it is better than some other drugs that old school vets use.

Even safer, and even more expensive than ket/val is "propofol" which is often used in "higher risk" patients. (yes, it killed Michael jackson...but its very safe).
...now Im rambling...LOL
Why does it bleep out ****tail?? coctail...coktail..****tail!
 
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Generally vets use ketamine mixed with valium injected I.V as an induction agent (knocks your cat out for a few mins so we can get a breathing tube down to hook up to gas anesthesia).
For cat neuters, because they only take 2 mins to do, vets will use ketamine/valium mix for the actual surgery.
1/2 hour or so, before using ket/val they inject another coctail" under the skin or in the musle which varies between clinics, but is usually a painkiller mixed with some other drugs that counteract the undesirable effects of anesthesia.
Ketamine is dangerous to Sphynx and Devon Rex (see article) but also to regular cats with heart problems...so it is a risk.
I had used Ket/val as an induction agent in cats for 13 yrs (literally thousands of times) and never had a death, just 1 cat with a bad reaction (it was overly sedated, took longer to wake up) and it was a purebred cat, not a devon or sphynx....
I worked with a vet for 5 yrs that I would repeatedly caution to use a lower dose on purebred cats, but he never listened...
He also prefered to use "thiopental" a thiobarbituate, (really old school and cheap) INSTEAD of ket/val.....(safer and more expensive than thiopental).
So although ketamine gets a bad rap with sphynx, devon rex and heart problem patients.....it is better than some other drugs that old school vets use.

Even safer, and even more expensive than ket/val is "propofol" which is often used in "higher risk" patients. (yes, it killed Michael jackson...but its very safe).
...now Im rambling...LOL
Why does it bleep out ****tail?? coctail...coktail..****tail!

Adventures of A Naked Cat
not to take away from the seriousness of the thread..... but I just have to try it.... ****TAIL
 
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Nofuratu

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I guess we could substitute dickinabox-tail. (ok... no one get upset! its from saturday night live) :Cool::Surprise::Laugh:
I just love justin timberlake! When I saw him do SNL I thought he was a fabulous actor!

?But a **** is a type of bird!! Does it bleep out ass (donkey) and bitch (female dog) ...I really hate censorship!! Seriously!!! It annoys me more than any "dirty" word!!!!
Censorship is a dirty word!! LOL
 
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