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Lysine BAD for cats?!?

Monica

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I came across this article in a sphynx FB group today... Take it however you wish, I’m simply found it interesting and thought to share! I know many Lair users, myself included, supplement with Lysine regularly.

The Truth About L-Lysine for Cats

I believe this research was current as of Nov. 2015. Please share any updated or revised info if you have it!

Also, now having this evidence, what will you do? Continue to use L-Lysine for immunity benefits, or discontinue altogether?
 

Catzzzmeow

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Have seen this data over the years. None of our cats suffer from herpes. We do use L-Lysine daily and when we see a respiratory issue develop we double the dosage. Our vet has recommended it so we double the dosage when one develops a possible URI. Just like with human supplements there will always be controversy.
 

Monica

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@Catzzzmeow True. I honestly had never heard of using it for herpes treatment. We’ve used it on Kenzo since day 1, and he’s never had a sniffle! The only part that I found relevant to those of us who use it for URIs was:

“Furthermore, lowering arginine levels is highly undesirable since cats cannot synthesize this amino acid themselves. Arginine deficiency will result in hyperammonemia, which may be fatal.”

I’m not familiar enough with optimal arginine levels in sphynx cats, so I would need to explore further to really make a judgement based on that. Seems like a slippery slope.
 

Yoda mom

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@Monica
I saw this too
To be honest, I did not see a difference giving l-lysine to my boy when he had his eye corneal sequesttrun and secondary eye inflammation. the eye specialist said could be herpes related.
She told me not to test him because of false positives and instead got Idoxurine etc and all healed fine with no scarring -
I am using up the lysine paste the tomly Toby will eat
When I mix Thebes powered in wet food my brats walk away
I did not reorder the l-lysine powder

It’s all just a personal decision
Like humans taking supplements

You can discuss with your vet to make an informed decision

Head smooches sent
 

Condo commando

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The article doesn't really say l-lysine is bad..... just that it may not be effective. And I heard that from my vet as well who told me it seems to helps some cats but not all. Basically you don't lose anything for trying it and if it helps then great, but if not then move on to something else.

You also have to consider that there are various things that can cause an upper respiratory infection - not just herpesvirus - so sometimes when l-lysine doesn't work maybe it was because the problem was caused by something else.

I tried l-lysine a few years ago with one of my cats and it didn't seem to make a difference so I stopped using it. But now I have another cat that has cold symptoms so I just ordered a new bottle of l-lysine capsules because I figured it's worth a shot. I mean the only thing I have to lose is the $10 I paid for the capsules.

If none of my cats had symptoms of an upper respiratory infection, I wouldn't bother. If you want to supplement there are better things you can give starting with omega 3's.
 
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Yoda mom

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@Condo commando have you tried Iceland pure sardine and anchovie oil
( I got the big container for my dogs and keep in the fridge) going to try it with the kittles
https://www.chewy.com/iceland-pure-... [USER=14095]@Monica[/USER] keep us updated
 
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Condo commando

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@Condo commando @Yoda mom Thanks for chiming in the discussion! I definitely intend on adding more omega-3s to my babies’ diets. I saw @Bailey21 does ‘Sardine Saturday’ every week. I think it’s a cute idea to try!
Sounds like me before I found where I could buy frozen herring! I used to buy canned sardines (the ones packed in water) and split a can between 2 cats on the weekend.
 

meandmytwo

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It is true that Lysine does not have anti viral properties. That’s simply not what it is - it’s not an antiviral. Nor does it boost immunity on it’s own. It does not work that way.

Lysine is an essential amino acid that the human body needs, but our body does not manufacture it. Thus we must get it from food. (“Essential” means it’s not manufactured in the body.)

Arginine is an amino acid that is manufactured by our bodies (the human body). We do get it from food in addition.

Why these two amino acids are relevant to the herpes virus is this :

The herpes virus replicates and thrives in a body that is high in Arginine. The herpes virus does not do so well in a body that is high in Lysine. By bringing your levels of Lysine up, you are reducing the ratio of Arginine.

The human body makes all the Arginine it needs. Being that’s not the case with Lysine - there is the belief that we need to supplement. But, the average healthy diet will give you enough Lysine.

Now, the above information is true in humans. It’s much different for cats and other species.

In carnivores, the way these amino acids are obtained and their requirements and importance within the body are different from humans. First of all, Arginine is not manufactured in the body of a cat. In a cat, Arginine is an “essential” amino acid, meaning they must get it from food (or supplementation) and too low of levels can be fatal. As in humans, supplementing a cat with Lysine brings the level of Arginine down (re: ratio of each). But a cat with too low of levels of Arginine is not a healthy cat.

Consider this : We hear a lot about Taurine for cats. Taurine is an essential amino acid - cats require it but do not manufacture it (hence, “essential”). They usually do not get enough of it from their diet and most concerning is that it does not stay in their system long enough - this is why it’s so important that we supplement. It’s added to all (I believe all) commercial cat foods. Arginine is also an essential amino acid in cats (their bodies do not manufacture it - they only get it from food. I know I’m repeating myself).

The Arginine cats get from their diet is typically enough but lowering it (remember : supplementing with Lysine lowers the Arginine) is dangerous.

(By the way, Lysine is also an “essential” amino acid in cats. Both Lysine and Arginine are - and both are obtained from animal protein, which is why as carnivores supplementation of either is not usually required. )

If your cat does not suffer from herpes, supplementing with Lysine is lowering their levels of Arginine without the benefit of even needing the Lysine to slow down the replication of the herpes virus.

When you are doing research on Lysine for cats, also do research on how Lysine affects Arginine and make an informed decision for your situatuon - a decision based on something other than the claims (marketing) that Lysine is an immunity booster. It simply is not.

Supplementing with Lysine has been touted for many many years as a way to control the herpes virus in humans (with mixed results - but the science makes some sense). How it got to be popular for cats makes zero scientific sense being that amino acids ie : how they are manufactured (within the body or only from diet), used within a body and how important they are in different ways for humans vs other species.

I am not a doctor or vet or scientist of any kind. Please correct any information I’m suggesting if you know it to be false.

Amino acids are a complicated topic : where they derive from, manufactured by the body or not, how they affect other amino acids. And this is different between species. Back to Taurine for a second as an example : cats do not manufacture it within their body, but humans and dogs do.

Point is : Studies on humans in regards to the herpes/Lysine/Arginine connection may have some truth to it and are safe to try. In cats, the results are not proven and in fact may be harmful. And, if your cat doesn’t even have herpes, increasing Lysine will do nothing to slow the replication of the virus if the virus is not there.
 
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Catzzzmeow

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It is true that Lysine does not have anti viral properties. That’s simply not what it is - it’s not an antiviral. Nor does it boost immunity on it’s own. It does not work that way.

Lysine is an essential amino acid that the human body needs, but our body does not manufacture it. Thus we must get it from food. (“Essential” means it’s not manufactured in the body.)

Arginine is an amino acid that is manufactured by our bodies (the human body). We do get it from food in addition.

Why these two amino acids are relevant to the herpes virus is this :

The herpes virus replicates and thrives in a body that is high in Arginine. The herpes virus does not do so well in a body that is high in Lysine. By bringing your levels of Lysine up, you are reducing the ratio of Arginine.

The human body makes all the Arginine it needs. Being that’s not the case with Lysine - there is the belief that we need to supplement. But, the average healthy diet will give you enough Lysine.

Now, the above information is true in humans. It’s much different for cats and other species.

In carnivores, the way these amino acids are obtained and their requirements and importance within the body are different from humans. First of all, Arginine is not manufactured in the body of a cat. In a cat, Arginine is an “essential” amino acid, meaning they must get it from food (or supplementation) and too low of levels can be fatal. As in humans, supplementing a cat with Lysine brings the level of Arginine down (re: ratio of each). But a cat with too low of levels of Arginine is not a healthy cat.

Consider this : We hear a lot about Taurine for cats. Taurine is an essential amino acid - cats require it but do not manufacture it (hence, “essential”). They usually do not get enough of it from their diet and most concerning is that it does not stay in their system long enough - this is why it’s so important that we supplement. It’s added to all (I believe all) commercial cat foods. Arginine is also an essential amino acid in cats (their bodies do not manufacture it - they only get it from food. I know I’m repeating myself).

The Arginine cats get from their diet is typically enough but lowering it (remember : supplementing with Lysine lowers the Arginine) is dangerous.

(By the way, Lysine is also an “essential” amino acid in cats. Both Lysine and Arginine are - and both are obtained from animal protein, which is why as carnivores supplementation of either is not usually required. )

If your cat does not suffer from herpes, supplementing with Lysine is lowering their levels of Arginine without the benefit of even needing the Lysine to slow down the replication of the herpes virus.

When you are doing research on Lysine for cats, also do research on how Lysine affects Arginine and make an informed decision for your situatuon - a decision based on something other than the claims (marketing) that Lysine is an immunity booster. It simply is not.

Supplementing with Lysine has been touted for many many years as a way to control the herpes virus in humans (with mixed results - but the science makes some sense). How it got to be popular for cats makes zero scientific sense being that amino acids ie : how they are manufactured (within the body or only from diet), used within a body and how important they are in different ways for humans vs other species.

I am not a doctor or vet or scientist of any kind. Please correct any information I’m suggesting if you know it to be false.

Amino acids are a complicated topic : where they derive from, manufactured by the body or not, how they affect other amino acids. And this is different between species. Back to Taurine for a second as an example : cats do not manufacture it within their body, but humans and dogs do.

Point is : Studies on humans in regards to the herpes/Lysine/Arginine connection may have some truth to it and are safe to try. In cats, the results are not proven and in fact may be harmful. And, if your cat doesn’t even have herpes, increasing Lysine will do nothing to slow the replication of the virus if the virus is not there.

Great information to read up on.
 

Condo commando

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@meandmytwo thanks for the thorough explanation. I had never gotten a detailed explanation like that but what you're saying makes sense.

The fact that my knowledge is limited and that there is so much to know is why I feel good about using the a supplement when I make cat food. Somebody else has already done the work to make sure that my cats will get what they need. All I have to do is make sure I get quality meats and follow the instructions.

I just checked the label for Alnutrin which is what I use, and sure enough it has both arginine and lysine. I might just contact the lady that makes Alnutrin and ask her how do I calculate how much lysine my cats are getting just from the Alnutrin. If you all are interested let me know and I'll follow up with whatever info I get from her.
 

Monica

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@meandmytwo Thanks for the thorough explanation!

@Condo commando Please do follow up! I'm currently searching for a wholesome and complete raw recipe for my whole crew that is not either expensive AF (like prepackage raw) and not too difficult to source (ie. not 20+ ingredients lol). Alnutrin is one of the supplements I was looking into!
 

meandmytwo

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I’m glad it’s helpful and encouraging conversation. I got writing in the middle of the night and editing is not my strong suit haha. I should say again, I’m no authority and anything I think to be accurate (or likely so, according to studies) is what I’ve shared.

Thanks @Monica for the OP.
Like @Catzzzmeow I’ve seen similar articles and make sure to have a look.

Yes, @Condo commando , do share whatever you find out! Certain essential amino acids may or may not be added to prepackaged foods and mix-ins, but they are in the meat you’re making the raw meals with. It’s unlikely a raw diet would be deficient in any essential amino acid. Animal proteins are considered “complete proteins” which means they contain at least some amount of ALL the essential amino acids (for humans anyway - I haven’t been able to deduce from literature if all animal proteins contain all the essential amino acids cats need, but my guess is yes). Plant based proteins such as nuts and beans are not “complete proteins” meaning they do not contain ALL the essential amino acids. That is one reason why it can be a challenge for vegans to get all the “protein” they need... it’s easy enough to get all the protein but it’s the right amounts of essential amino acids that may be in question. Hence why some will say that vegans don’t get the “right kind of protein”. They’re right, but may not know why. I had no idea what “complete protein” meant until I recently did research alongside a vegan friend of mine, even though I was hearing the term all the time. And my diet is pretty good!

is a somewhat related read, concluding that cats need certain kinds of protein ie: animal protein, (the author is speaking of canned or dry commercial foods) to meet their needs, not just a food that is “high protein” because that could be protein from incomplete sources (non animal sources).

I found this next one reassuring, after I did not see any essential amino acids (other than Taurine) listed in the ingredients for Better in the Raw, which is what I feed.


It states that Taurine may not be on an ingredient list because it hasn’t been added as a supplement. Rather, the required amount of Taurine is naturally present in the meat protein. The same should be true of other essential amino acids - there is enough in the meat in the cat food and therefore not listed. Sort of like when you buy an orange at the store - there are no ingredients listed cause nothing is added but the vitamin c is in there!

A couple other things :

I wrote above that using Lysine to try to control herpes in cats “makes zero scientific sense” compared to humans - I should have written “makes less sense”, not zero. While many studies show that a high level of Lysine does not inhibit replication of herpes virus in cats, some do.

Also, I wasn’t sure/clear when talking about Lysine lowering Arginine. Studies are contradictory, but it’s believed Lysine does not lower Arginine. The opposite effect they have on the herpes virus is to do with the ratio. So, a diet high in Lysine relative to Arginine is what is believed by some to slow the replication of the virus and thus reduce symptoms.

IMO The concern is that most studies to do with herpes/Lysine/Arginine are done on humans. It may be irresponsible to assume that it’s safe for cats the way it is for humans. Main reason being, Arginine is an essential amino acid in cats (their bodies don’t produce it - you don’t want to risk it being low) but in humans our bodies do produce it and it’s enough (except infants I believe, who do need it from diet). Most important, an Arginine deficiency in humans is not fatal like it is in cats. Knowing that, I’m surprised it’s not added to cat food like Taurine is. That said, it’s gotta be in there (in the meat) like Taurine is even though not listed.

As long as there is this contradictory information out there, I personally would try an antiviral drug for my kitties if they had FHV (with serious enough symptoms). Mostly because I believe it’s a sure thing. Costly but most effective. And if I believed their immunity was not what it should be, I’d use a proven immunity booster (though I don’t know what those are).

Another long middle of the night post. Zzzzzzz lol
 
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Silke

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She told me not to test him because of false positives
That's what my vet in Germany said as well, which is why Jez wasn't tested. She went through a year and a half of aggressive Herpes treatment and, when I had her checked out, and tested! --- in France, it turned out she didn't have herpes at all, but Mycoplasma and an allergy.
She was treated with a low level antibiotic, two different eye ointments, Lysine treats, and within 3 weeks her eye was clear.
If you suspect Herpes, get tests. Seriously.
Not only did it cost me about 2k over the year and a half of treatment, but --worse-- she was also needlessly on Famvir, which can cause kidney failure!
 

Condo commando

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Hey there @meandmytwo and everybody else -

I just wanted to update you guys ....I asked the founder of Alnutrin about lysine. She said Alnutrin does not have any added lysine because it's supposed to come from the meat. I also asked her about the connection between lysine and arginine in case anyone wanted to add lysine. This is what she emailed me back:

"I have never heard about that. I have a great book at home that has all this information but I am in Europe right now. I will check it out your when I get back to the US in May let you know if I find out anything."

So I'm just waiting for May. I'll update again when I hear from her.
 
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