Millers vs BYB

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Gadzukz, Jun 10, 2010.

  1. Gadzukz

    GadzukzV.I.P Lairian V.I.P Lairian

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    I found this article on a dog forum, and thought it was interesting. If it is inappropriate, I apologize and Admin feel free to remove it:

    A BYB is someone who has a few pets and decides they can make a few bucks by breeding their dogs together without regard for genetic health, conformation to breed standard, relationship of the two dogs, or where the dogs came from and if they are even of the same breed.
    They breed family pets so why would they need to show their breeding dogs is what they will say to you the buyer. They live in the house and sleep in the bed and have the puppies in the kitchen. They see a vet for vaccinations and yearly health exams. The parents are "the best dogs ever" and the vet tech, kid down the street, and the lady they met on their walk said so and should breed them because their puppies would be so fantastic and the family could make a little bit of extra money selling them.

    Many think in their minds that they are doing a good thing by providing pets from pets. They view Millers as evil and Show Breeders as snooty and exclusive. They will sell you a dog for Christmas, Valentines Day, or a child's birthday and think it is a fantastic gift.

    A Mill dog never lives inside, has little to no contact with humans, is not socialized, lives in a kennel with hundreds of other dogs and is kept in small little pens. They never see a vet, c-sections are done with no anesthetic and no sterilization, they don't go for walks or play in the yard, they have no toys or treats and their food gets covered in feces and the water gets moldy. Mill puppies are sold to Corporations who ship them all over the US at an age when they are too young to even have left their mothers. And a bullet is cheaper then a needle when the dog is too old to produce or is too debilitated to breed.

    I just to be clear that the fact that you want a pet doesn't mean you should get it from someone breeding their own pets. Your family pet deserves to have the very best genetic health possible so it can live a long healthy life with you. You chose the breed for a reason partially for its looks and temperament so conformation or as close to standard as possible is also important in your family pet and you shouldn't let anyone tell you anything different.
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  2. Bella07

    Bella07Banned

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    True, True. Unfortunately, I have bought from both a mill (petland) and a BYB. All unknowingly of course. Over the past few years I have learned so much! I kow that I will never make those mistakes again. Rescuing or a Reputable breeder only for me from now on!
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2010
  3. Gadzukz

    GadzukzV.I.P Lairian V.I.P Lairian

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    I have bought from BYBs many times in the past also. I never really thought about it. I thought this article did a good job highlighting the difference in the two, as a lot of people lump them together.
     
  4. AlmostNakedPups

    AlmostNakedPupsBanned

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    Very good article--though I disagree with some parts of it. I wish things like this circulated more widely. Why can't something like that become an internet chain letter????

    I wrote a couple mini articles for my site dealing with this subject, too. I typically direct my potential clients to various sections of my site in hopes they will answer some of the more common questions and then spark new ones so I can see what kind of people they are and how they process info.

    Usually these folks ask about the puppymillers and BYBs and how to spot them. I tell them to get educated about the dogs they're looking at!

    ~~Edited to add that sometimes "hobby breeder" is used in place of BYB, but I do not think these are the same thing! A hobby breeder tends to know a LOT more about their critters than the BYB does, and breeds under safe conditions and with the intent of healthy offspring.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2010
  5. holly_savage

    holly_savageBanned

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    OK, I am not wanting to start a controversy about this, but I agree with the article up to this part...there is nothing wrong with buying a pet from family/farmer down the road who happens to have kittens or puppies, they can be some of the best pets in the world...be they mixed breed/mutt or one that looks like a certain breed...people just need be made aware of the differences and possible consequences of their decisions.

    I think the BYB comes into play when they continue to knowingly produce unhealthy pets without sharing the info with the buyers.
     
  6. Mews2much

    Mews2muchV.I.P Lairian V.I.P Lairian

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    We got a puppy from a pet store that was shut down years ago.
    I was a kid at the time and the puppy had worms and was not even the breed she was suppose to be.
    She was suppose to be a English Setter.
    It turned out this pet store was buying all the pups from puppy mills.
    This was a well known chain pet store.
    Another mistake was my Manx.
    She came from a pet store that is still in business and was only 6 weeks old when we got her.
    I was about 14 when we got her and told my mom get the manx.
    The poor cat had seizures all the time and we she was paralyzed the last 2 years that she lived.
    I still have the scars from when she was sleeping on me and had a seizure.
    She died having a bad one at age 11 when I was at work.
    She had that problem many manx have.
    I know so much more then what I knew then.
    My Coco came from a pet store that is now out of business.
    She was from a BYB or maybe a breeder.
    Her mom was a seal point pure bred siamese with papers.
    All the kittens looked siamese except Coco.
    I told my sister get a siamese looking kitten.
    Well no one wanted Coco because she is black and white.
    Coco is now 18 and was well worth the $45 I paid for her.
    She has always had asthma though and was never sick until she almost died at age 9.




     
  7. Fester

    FesterSenior Lairian Senior Lairian

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    A word in defense of BYB for specific circumstances:

    working dogs!

    I grew up in a rural/ranching area, and in my area there were about three types of dogs it was 'okay' to get for a working dog: blue heelers, australian shepherds, and Vernes'

    the first two are well known breeds-- the third was of no particular pedigree, although Vernes' looked very much alike, what they had was health and training.

    Verne wouldn't sell one of his dogs to just anyone, he had to know you and know you took good care of animals before he would sell one to you.

    As much as I think there are exceptions like Verne(I never did get his first name) for the most part BYB's are at best reckless, and at worst, taking the first steps on a slippery slope to mill-hood.
     
  8. AlmostNakedPups

    AlmostNakedPupsBanned

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    These are very good points! Health and education are key. I don't think there is a problem with hobby breeders (as opposed to BYB) as long as they know their breed and are smart about it. Just because you choose to have one litter every few years rather than multiple litters each year doesn't mean you are any less or any more of a conscientious breeder--it's all about your education and your commitment to the health and well-being of the life you're helping to create.

    I know several breeders who only have one litter every few years, but their knowledge on their chosen breed is astronomical!
     
  9. AlmostNakedPups

    AlmostNakedPupsBanned

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    Very good point, Fester! I didn't even think about working dogs. You're absolutely correct. These people are breeding their own successful and useful dogs and producing other potentially successful working dogs. They may or may not have the "official" education to back them up, but they know their dogs and what their breed should be able to do. Breeding two excellent working dogs in this case is okay (in my opinion.) Wow, I'd completely forgotten about the working dogs in that kind of scenario! (Kind of makes me think of the movie Babe lol.)
     
  10. admin

    adminAdministrator Staff Member

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    Well I guess the Admins are guilty of being BYB's. Yes our "pets" sleep in our beds with us, and the kittens as well (i love snuggling them!), and yes we went one step further then the kitchen, shhhh....*whisper*we had the kittens in the closet*...No we do not show our cats because we do not enjoy this type of hobby or what ever showing is considered. We breed Sphynx cats (on their own, not locked in cages or rooms to breed) for people who love and want to share the experience with these wonderful creatures. I dont care if he or she has a hair on his back where it should not be or his tail is not long enough etc. We know the blood lines, we frequent the vet and we dont show. So if this is what a back yard breeder is then we are guilty. This "comment" or "opinion" clearly sounds like a breeder in my eyes who is upset that she can't sell her overpriced perfect show kittens! The buyer is more then welcome to shop around and im sure they can put on their big boy or big girl pants and make a grown up descision.:LOL::LOL:
     
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    • holly_savage

      holly_savageBanned

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      Well said almostnakedpups and admin...the health and well being of the pet and the happiness of the purchaser is what is important in the end right?
       
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      • AlmostNakedPups

        AlmostNakedPupsBanned

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        LOL! No, I'd call you a hobby breeder because you OBVIOUSLY know your stuff! You love your kitties, you know the breed, and you're conscientious about your breeding. You love your kitties and you show it by bringing babies into the world who get to sleep with you and snuggle with you and grow up ina HOME not a sterile cattery or a nasty box somewhere in a back shed.

        Nope. . . definitely a hobby breeder.:ThumbsUp:

        One thing Ive found interesting is the varied definitions of BYB and millers and hobby breeders. They ARE three different things (as far as I'm concerned)

         
      • Gadzukz

        GadzukzV.I.P Lairian V.I.P Lairian

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        Whoa! Please don't take my intent wrong. I simply thought that it did a good job explaining the diff in BYB and Mills. A lot of people lump the two togather and they shouldn't. I would prefer personally, a BYB who cared about the pets and bred healthy animals. Dog shows (I have never been to a cat show and can't speak about it) ruin many breeds IMO, mostly working dogs as was pointed out. You can be a BYB and NOT be a puppy mill, it's not the same thing. That was my only point. I sincerely did not mean to offend anyone, and did not have anyone in mind.
         
      • admin

        adminAdministrator Staff Member

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        No, I respect your findings on another forum and thats ok, but there is a wide range of what you could consider a BYB. So what would make me a backyard breeder? I don't show. I do not breed my Sphynx in the backyard. My cats are registered and I have 3 generations of both of my Sphynx cats bloodlines. I do know a bit about the breed. So my point is, what is a BYB, do you need a fancy website with "available litters" sphynx health" sphynx care tips" I would prefer not to have a site for my Sphynx kittens and sell only local, no shipping. My new parents come to my home and sit for hours with mommy and daddy and babies. I even invite them to my site, there are a few members here that have my kittens. I guess my point is that unfortunatly there are individuals out there that claim"SPHYNX BREEDER" and really have no clue or concept on what they think they know or what they actiually do. They buy 2 cats for 2500.00 a peice with breeding rights, join a yahoo group and they are proffesional Sphynx breeders. It is sad to say there are actually breeders I am familiar with and think that HCM is a "sphynx cat disease" that only the Sphynx contracts, or that they can scan their cat's yearly HCM free and believe their kittens can not get HCM, or even worse the "new" sales pitch "5 year guarentee HCM free". thats a good one. Sorry it just makes me laugh sometimes!:LOL::LOL: there so silly!
         
      • Bella07

        Bella07Banned

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        I consitute a Back Yard Breeder if they are breeding for "fun", "good for the kids to experiece the miracle of life," "to make money," etc. They don't screen their buyers, with no care where the kittens go---just as long as they get their $$$.

        They breed the purebred animal just to have purebreds, and don't have any concern when it comes to genetics, the pedigree bloodlines, or improving the breed.
        They don't test for HCM, hip dysplasia, etc...whatever is common in that breed.
        They aren't willing to show the buyer their home, the rest of the litter, or the dam/sire. Aren't honest when it comes to the animals quality. (pet, show)

        And they don't care about the animals, or the breed really. They sell all the animals with full registration, and don't care who breeds their baby. Nor do they offer any sort of health guarantee.

        That's all I can think of for the moment....but, if you don't do any of the above, then I would consider you a fair/pretty good breeder! :BigSmile:
         
      • AlmostNakedPups

        AlmostNakedPupsBanned

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        ~jaw hits the floor~

        Are you SERIOUS???? I don't even know what to say about that one.
         
      • Jinxlover

        JinxloverGuest

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        See that's the issue with the term "Backyard Breeder". What makes a BYB is in the eye of the beholder. I'm not so sure the term "Backyard Breeder" is that cut and dry, or black and white. I have seen some bad breeders in my time, Great Dane puppies to there knees in runny puppy poo, mom so thin she need vet care. A good breeder is hard to find,I have seen many more Bad breeders than good!!
         
      • ilovemysphynx

        ilovemysphynxAdministrator Staff Member

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        My 2 cents and some things my husband has left out. Everyone has their own definition of a BYB. First yes we do breed our sphynx and yes we do consider them our pets. To me that is better then having a bunch of females and one male that is caged all the time and only allowed out the do his duty and go back to his cage. That may be fine for some but I do not agree.
        Second yes we do have 3 generations on both our parents and have checked the lines for anything that would make them not worthy of breeding but what we do not do is have a fancy website where I say over and over that I check for this and scan for that HCM being on the top of the list for some of these breeders that instill in the buyers heads that they do all these things so they are buying the best cat in the world and charge way too much $$$$ for a pet, what they neglect to tell these buyers is that there is no way to guarantee that the pet they are buying will not come down with one of these god awful things. They all give the same garente we do but think they have something no one else has or that anyone else can produce with their sphynx because they lead people to believe they are better than the rest? I am not saying there are not lots of good breeders out their, but there are lots of bad breeders out there also. I have seen it more so in puppies when looking for Delilah and yes they where mills (but that is another story).
        What I am trying to say is that it is impossible to judge just because a breeder does not do this or have that, we take pride in every kitten that has left this house.
        Third all these breeders ship there kittens and to some that is great but what the breeder with the 10 females and 1 caged male neglects to tell you is that because you have purchased out of state that great contract he or she just gave you is void because the laws do not follow state to state. I learned this the hard way with our dog Sydney and in the first year spent thousands on vet bills. I contacted every one there is and being that she was from a state other then mine there was no refund no money for vet bills and no replacement puppy.
        We started sphynxlair so every one can have information on the sphynx breed because when we first brought Leo home there was not much out there and if we found some info or called one of these great breeders with questions I was told my cat was not worthy of this and I was not worthy of that, to me that is a bunch of bs.
        I have spent numerous nights on the floor so I could lay with Athena and her babies and make sure everyone is eating and doing well, I have rushed to the vet and spent hundreds just because I was worried and want the best for my pets and their babies. We have even rescued a 9 year old in need of a home, one of these fancy breeders would quickly turn their head on a older neutered sphynx because it would not benefit their pocket.
        Point is the only way to tell is to visit the home where any pet is coming from and never judge a book by its cover.:Wink:
         
      • marlene

        marleneV.I.P Lairian V.I.P Lairian

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        I would agree with this 100%. I think we can all pretty much agree on what a mill is. IMHO a BYB is someone who breeds rather randomly, usually to whatever stud/dam happens to be locally "convenient and cheap", and is a person who knows little (or nothing) about their animal's background other than the names written on a pedigree. BYBs are most usually guilty of breeding the family pet once or twice just to recoup the money they spent buying it. The babies they sell may or may not have received vet care, it all depends on whether or not the breeder even knows what shots the little ones need and when they need them.

        A hobby breeder is quite a different person and is usually passionate about their breeding. Typically the parents of the babies are pets first and breeders second, so the offspring are raised in the home. Hobby breeders know the basic problems of their breed and usually have an idea of what is going on in different bloodlines. These babies are well-cared for, and while they may not meet the show standards, they will be good representations of their breed and make wonderful pets.

        I myself have no problem with buying from a hobby breeder - that's where Pedda and Little Ren came from. And I say that having a strong background in breeding/showing Maine Coons. I've been doing a lot of research lately trying to find a sphynx breeder so I can get a kitten to keep Pedda and me company. And please excuse my tone of frustration here. My primary concern is whether or not the parents have been scanned for HCM. I have a ton of breeders in my area and so far I have yet to find the elusive one that scans. Come on... if you can charge $1200+ for a pet quality kitten you can afford to have the queen scanned. If you're charging $2500+ for a stud fee, you can afford to have the king scanned. If you can't afford that then you can't afford to breed, pure and simple. I know that sounds harsh, but given the instances of HCM I can't help but have that opinion. I'm aware that scanning does nothing more than decrease the chances of HCM; but if I'm going to spend that kind of money for a pet then I want those better odds. As I told another member here, it would take both hands for me to count the Maine Coons that I've lost to HCM, and if there is even one tiny thing that I can do to prevent another kitty from literally letting out a grunt and dying as I pet it, then I'm going to do it. Buying only from scanned parents is my way of doing that.

        I've noticed little difference in kitten prices between hobby breeders and well-known exhibition breeders in my area. But I would gladly pay MORE $ to a hobby breeder that scans than to a "reputable show breeder" who doesn't scan.

        My apologies to anyone who is offended by my post. Given the number of pets that I've lost to HCM, and sitting here looking at their cremation tins lined up on a shelf, I can't help but be passionate about doing all in our power to eradicate, or at least minimize, the occurance of this horrific disease. And at this point I'm also frightened, because Little Ren was diagnosed with a heart murmur the week before he died, though of course at that point in time a heart murmur was the least of our concerns. He and Pedda share the same sire and I know that greatly increases the risk of her having heart disease. So I'm crossing my fingers until I get her down to the vet school at OSU for a certified cardiologist scan.
         
        Last edited: Jun 10, 2010
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        • Jinxlover

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          Okay I have an HCM question.. This is a real question, I'm not trying to start a war..(please don't kill me:Laugh:)

          Okay this is my understanding of HCM and HCM scanning..

          Most HCM does not show up on HCM scans tell after 5 years of age. Most Queens are finished having babies by 5 years of age. So you would never know anyways tell after you have bought your kitten and love it..Right?

          Someone please tell me if I'm wrong.. I very well may be I don't know. So I dont understand why someone would insist on HCM scanning if this is the case.. ?????
           
        • marlene

          marleneV.I.P Lairian V.I.P Lairian

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          Jinxlover, I've had cats as young as 14 months show up positive on a scan, though the majority of my cats scanned positive as 4-5 year olds. However, back then we didn't routinely scan, the only time a scan was done was if the kitty became symptomatic or if the vet heard a murmur. So it's quite possible that they would have scanned positive if they'd been scanned sooner (my time frame references the late 80's to mid 90's).
           
        • Mews2much

          Mews2muchV.I.P Lairian V.I.P Lairian

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          Breeders start scanning around 1.5 years old.
          Many sphynx are not pos at first but by scanning as soon as they are the right age you can see changes as they get older that might show the start of HCM.
          There also is a blood test you can get before you scan now.
           
        • admin

          adminAdministrator Staff Member

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          To a point, see, HCM can attack an animal at any age. It's generally recommended to scan for HCM at one year of age to allow the full development of the heart. Most vets will only schedule a scan if there is a murmur or other symptoms of a heart disease. Yes, in most cases it's between 2 to 5 years. But there is no actual set time, it can strike at any age. The best thing to do is regular vet visits to ensure a healthy pet.
           
        • susi794

          susi794Moderator Staff Member

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          Thank you God! Finally a breath of fresh air! I too, then, am a BYB. And I get really tired of hearing that phrase bandied about. I don't show, don't plan to show, but am not opposed to those that do--wouldn't mind doing it if I were wealthy enough and unemployed, but at this point in my life that isn't the case. Like the admins, I don't care if my cats are show quality or not. I breed for health and temperment--and the last I knew, nobody can guarantee their animals are going to be any healthier or live a second longer than mine are going to if they have the perfect ear set or head shape. People make it sound like a crime to be content to breed pet quality cats. The differences between a "REPUTABLE" breeder and me? I don't force my opinions on THEM. I am not under the misguided perception that my way is the only way.
          I am honest and I genuinely CARE whether or not the people that have my cats are satisfied after doing business with me. I answer my phone calls, emails or letters--whether it's good news or bad. I don't promise one thing and then deliver another.

          I am sick to death of hearing about BYB's--be careful about implying that other people aren't reputable because they do things differently than you.
           
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          • Mews2much

            Mews2muchV.I.P Lairian V.I.P Lairian

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            Wrinkles breeder does not show but she really cares about her cats and kittens.
            I was going to meet her at the show this weekend but she had 2 litters of kittens born.
            One litter is 4 days old and the other is 2 days old.
            She is not coming to meet me because she needs to be home with the kittens.
            She is very caring no matter what others have been saying about her.
            You know I can email or call her anytime for advice.
            To all of you that do not show.
            I think you should all go to a show as a spectator even if you never want to show.




            .