Our Poopy Journey, Clostridial Infection, Tylosin

[meandmytwo]

Hi all. This post is super long - what can I say other than I don't like to leave anything out. lol

Photos to follow!

I have made mention of our poopy struggles in other threads here and there but decided to start this one since I now know what the problem has been (or what part of the problem has been anyway) and perhaps help others. Searching here for clostridium, clostridial, and tylosin yields minimal information. And there are just a lot of poop threads with questions in general.

I’ve 2 boys, litter mates, now ten months old.

Freeway has always (almost always) had soft poop but has often suffered from very soft poop, very very soft poop and full on diarrhea. Opposite to that, he has on occasion been constipated for a poop or two, which was odd and something I thought significant to remember at the time - very inconsistent. Because Freeway has the more sensitive tummy of my two, any diet changes, vet visits and medications have been motivated by what’s going on with him. (I’ll include more history in a second post to keep this one more to the point, even though it really is not. LOL)

Frost generally has had normal poops (for a sphynx I guess somewhat soft is within normal levels) - they had been consistent anyway. But then he had diarrhea too (liquid) totally out of the blue for several poops in a row which is what prompted a vet visit the next day… the vet visit which led to finally getting all the fecal tests my vet could offer, that I have listed below. I could no longer dismiss my concerns with “it’s just Freeways sensitive tummy” when Frost got diarrhea too.

(They’ve both also had, from time to time (quite often, actually) poop that the first part comes out firm (perfect in fact) but the latter part is mush, which I started a thread about some months back.)

Fecal Float = $42.00
Giardia/Cryptosporidium = $72.00
Fecal Culture (lab out) = $140.00

I got both of them tested for all the above so the costs were what is listed x 2. My vet did not suggest all at once but instead to go in stages to save money (perhaps something would be found without getting all the tests) but I pushed for them all at once because I was standing there with 2 ziplocks full of brown liquid and hoped to not have to repeat that anytime soon.

What was found was a Clostridial Infection. Freeway had very high levels and Frost had less so but still enough to be concerning.

They were prescribed Tylosin for the infection and B12 shots once a week for 6 weeks. My vet figured they were low on vitamin B12 due to poor absorption because of the on again off again soft poops/diarrhea. They were not tested for B12 levels, but apparently it can’t hurt them to have the shots.

I could put into my own words what I have learned about Clostridium and Tylosin, but I found these articles helpful and concurrent with what my vet told me, so I will link them. But as with anything found on the internet it’s sometimes not entirely accurate.

What a clostridial infection is :
Diarrhea Due to Clostridium perfringens in Cats | petMD

Tylosin :
Tylosin For Pets - Antibiotic Treatment For Diarrhea

That vet visit was about 6 weeks ago. They had 2 weeks of the Tylosin. Within 2 days their poops firmed up. After a few days of being off it though, Freeways diarrhea returned so he went back on the Tylosin for another 2 weeks. We finished up one week ago (Freeways second round of Tylosin and the 6 weeks of B12 shots). Freeway was having decent poos all week until today when he had a real softy. I will update this thread as needed because I’ve been told a Clostridial Infection can be hard to get rid of. I’ll see how it goes for a couple weeks, unless there is full on liquid poo again in which case we will see the vet.

I have learned that an infection with this bacteria (and others) usually results in intermittent very soft poop / diarrhea and many times the infection goes undetected because after a few days when the symptoms clear up the kitty parents dismiss it as a one off. Only to have it return a few weeks later or a month or even months later and the cycle repeats without treatment being sought. I read an article, can’t find it now so did not link it above, that said that the only problem really is the diarrhea because that can interfere with proper nutrition. And that many cats will test positive for clostridium even without symptoms. So, it usually isn’t harmful in itself but can cause long term GI problems, though usually does not.

I am wondering if anyone has experience with this situation and/or Tylosin for long term use. Apparently it can be used long term for different GI ailments including IBD, which my vet suggested Freeway *could* have. It can also be used long term as maintenance to control diarrhea in general when a history of on/off diarrhea has been observed and nothing (diet changes etc.) else has worked.

Tylosin is an antibiotic but works in a way that doesn't affect the good bacteria, if I understand correctly - it doesn’t kill off bacteria at all but instead blocks the replication of the problematic bacteria so that ones own good bacteria is unaffected and can hopefully do it’s good work. It also acts as an anti inflammatory, which is why it is sometimes used for IBD.

Feel free to share any experiences, offer any suggestions, (or correct any of the information I think to be accurate) or just wish me luck!

P.S. I am panning to introduce raw very slowly over the next month to see if that helps. But, we have tried raw before with poor results.

 

[meandmytwo]

A bit of history just for the sake of it :

First of all, through all of this my boys remained active, ate and drank well, and did not appear ill. Freeway has been growing at a slower rate than Frost but has never had a period of weight loss. So that is good. They are within a pound of each other.

My boys are litter mates, now 10 months old. They came to me eating only raw (at 13-14 weeks old) which I thought was great and I planned to continue and supplement with kibble once I needed to (once they got to about 6 months old when I would no longer be able to leave from work with ease as often. I had learned here about not feeding raw and kibble at the same time or too close to each other etc.

The day they arrived home with me they both had perfect poops. I began feeding them a commercial raw and within a couple days the soft poops started. I figured they were just adjusting as it was a different recipe than what they were used to. They had gotten a wellness check within a few days of arriving home and all was fine, other than runny eyes, sneezing etc that indicated a mild URI which, as we know with these guys, is not uncommon when moving to a new home. I opted to not get meds for that at that time.

Freeways poops got softer and softer as the weeks passed on the raw diet, instead of getting firmer as I expected they would as he adjusted to the new food. Soft to the point I finally got concerned so we went to the vet. (During this time though, he had very firm poop (too firm) on a couple of occasions and once he had an accident in one of his beds and it was black. The only true poop accident he has had.) The vet suspected Giardia so they were treated for that with Metronidazole. Freeway was also prescribed TobraDex eye drops for his watery, goopy eyes. Frosts eyes have been mostly fine.

Up to this point I had also tried pumpkin, Fortiflora, and Lysine with no consistent positive results. There really was no rhyme or reason to the good days vs the bad days.

At the time of being prescribed the Metronidazole and the TobraDex, my vet suggested a break from the raw (since they’d been eating that exclusively for a month and it was not working) so they began on Royal Canin High Energy Gastro food, wet, at my vets suggestion for 3 - 4 weeks to see if things would settle down. Just that food, no supplements, no treats. It helped for the most part for a couple weeks… until it didn’t anymore. They hadn’t been eating dry yet, so we introduced the equivalent food in the dry. Now they were eating wet morning and night and dry during the day, both gastro foods, with inconsistent results.

(Frost was actually ok for the most part during this - once in awhile he’d have a softy but it never escalated to the point I worried. But Freeway would have a couple good days of solid poop and I thought it was all behind us but a week of mush would follow that resulted in poopy foot (sunk in to his ankles sometimes or it would smear right down his legs from the get go (he puts his front paws as high as he can against the side of the box to stand to poop) and from there flicking poopy litter everywhere) - regular messes that left me in tears to be honest and so sad for my boy.

Over the next few months, I tried a few different kinds of food to get them off the gastro. I felt I was switching slowly enough and giving each one enough time. After trying a couple kinds of wet we went back to the gastro food as it worked the best. After trying a few different kinds of dry we settled on Natural Balance LID green pea and chicken. (We tried the duck first with poor results.)

LO AND BEHOLD, we had perfect poos for a whole month in a row! Maybe even 5 weeks! Not one bout of anything untoward. I thought we were home free. Until we were not. So back to how this thread began :

• Freeway’s poops were inconsistent (noteworthy), when all variables stayed the same
  
• Frost got diarrhea when it had only ever been Freeway.

I thought it had to be caused by something contagious. Thought maybe Giardia still, had the earlier treatment failed (though they had not been tested for it at that time).

Turns out, Clostridium is to blame and probably always was.

 

[meandmytwo]

And here they are! My sweet loves!:happy:



Frost is the blue and white and Freeway is the blue.

 

[Hairless Blessing]

So sorry. I wished there was something else could be done.
Have you thought about taking them to a University near
You?
I find they, are, the best. Well here they are.
I can't speak for every University. But, they are
many specialists there and can do many more test and
procedures. That a Vet's office can't.
It does cost more, but, if it's needed, it's needed.
As you said about having all the test and not wait.
Prayer's for your babies. Please keep us updated.

 

[meandmytwo]

@Hairless Blessing Thank you for the kind thoughts!

And the reminder to try the University. That would be easily done. We have a very good one here and it's a ten minute drive from my home. I know one of the tests was sent over there by my vet - the one that was called Fecal Culture on my bill. I'll ask my vet in the next couple weeks (if this hasn't been resolved with what we have already tried, will be trying) if there are additional tests that only the University can do. I will definitely check on that!

The last couple days Frost's poos have been as they usually are - softish but formed.
While Freeways poos are soft and not really formed at all but not diarrhea at least - maybe this is his normal.

I may (probably will) have the test for Clostridium done again in Freeway at some point soon to see if the levels have in fact lowered, whether as a result of the meds or whatever other reason (I am also slowly reintroducing FortiFlora and Lysine). In the healthiest of kitties with strong immune systems something like this is unlikely to have happened, from what I understand. Clostridium can be introduced a number of ways but as far as I know usually does not take hold to the point of causing problems.

Going forward... they had a wee bit of raw mixed in with their wet food last night and this morning. They eat about 3 oz of wet each twice/day and I added only 1 tsp of raw to each serving. I will continue with just that amount for a week before adding a little more. I decided on Primal frozen because the size of the nuggets will easily allow small amounts being introduced. I will leave their afternoon snacks of kibble unchanged for the time being (there is 5 hours between their wet/raw and their kibble). I was not using Primal when we tried raw months ago - we were using Carnivora which comes in large patties, like human burger patty size. The ingredient was also just "whole chicken carcass" which I thought good at the time but perhaps my guys need a little more variety of ingredients, which Primal has.

 

[Mariechovi]

All of this talk of our Sphynx catching this and that is frightning to me a new Sphynx owner... Lord. What causes this infection/bacteria to begin with? Maybe you posted it and I misded it? Its really scaring me some of the bits I read these kitty's get, especially how vets charge so much here.

 

[Mariechovi]

I hope this resolves itself poor you and babies!

 

[meandmytwo]

I hope this resolves itself poor you and babies!

Hi. Thanks @Mariechovi.

If I understand correctly Clostridium is a bacteria (of which there are around 100 species), commonly (maybe always?) found in the intestines of humans and animals in amounts that don't usually cause problems. It passes in feces so is commonly spread between animals that way. From what I have read it is found in many environmental sources such as soil, household dust (the spores I believe) and most commonly in/on raw meat (cooking kills it). It is a common cause of food poisoning but in most cases this resolves itself with or without even knowing, if symptoms are mild.

I guess in some cases, due to poor immunity (?) it does not resolve itself and requires medication. Perhaps diet or other changes (I don't know what) can help eradicate it also. Probably increasing immunity helps.

I'm new to this all myself so anyone please feel free to correct me.

I was not told which species of Clostridium my boys tested positive for either (if that can be told - I am going to ask next time it's convenient), and obviously they are some differences between them. I even read this on the wiki page : "Clostridium is a normal inhabitant of the healthy lower reproductive tract of women." So obviously they are not all harmful. I believe it is when the numbers are too high that it causes a problem.

 

[meandmytwo]

I don't know if trying raw food at this time is the best thing, seeing as that could have caused this problem, but for the sake of the other health benefits of raw (just to help my kitties be overall as healthy as possible) I feel I must. Especially after reading so many "raw stopped my cats diarrhea" stories.

 

[Hairless Blessing]

@Hairless Blessing Thank you for the kind thoughts!

And the reminder to try the University. That would be easily done. We have a very good one here and it's a ten minute drive from my home. I know one of the tests was sent over there by my vet - the one that was called Fecal Culture on my bill. I'll ask my vet in the next couple weeks (if this hasn't been resolved with what we have already tried, will be trying) if there are additional tests that only the University can do. I will definitely check on that!

The last couple days Frost's poos have been as they usually are - softish but formed.
While Freeways poos are soft and not really formed at all but not diarrhea at least - maybe this is his normal.

I may (probably will) have the test for Clostridium done again in Freeway at some point soon to see if the levels have in fact lowered, whether as a result of the meds or whatever other reason (I am also slowly reintroducing FortiFlora and Lysine). In the healthiest of kitties with strong immune systems something like this is unlikely to have happened, from what I understand. Clostridium can be introduced a number of ways but as far as I know usually does not take hold to the point of causing problems.

Going forward... they had a wee bit of raw mixed in with their wet food last night and this morning. They eat about 3 oz of wet each twice/day and I added only 1 tsp of raw to each serving. I will continue with just that amount for a week before adding a little more. I decided on Primal frozen because the size of the nuggets will easily allow small amounts being introduced. I will leave their afternoon snacks of kibble unchanged for the time being (there is 5 hours between their wet/raw and their kibble). I was not using Primal when we tried raw months ago - we were using Carnivora which comes in large patties, like human burger patty size. The ingredient was also just "whole chicken carcass" which I thought good at the time but perhaps my guys need a little more variety of ingredients, which Primal has.

I sure pray for your babies. Keep us updated.

 

[Maddie]

@Hairless Blessing there are only two vet schools in all of Canada, if I'm not mistaken. So do you mean that or where they teach vet tech? Just curious I know the states is different

 

[meandmytwo]

@Hairless Blessing there are only two vet schools in all of Canada, if I'm not mistaken. So do you mean that or where they teach vet tech? Just curious I know the states is different

There are five vet colleges in Canada (unless this info is outdated).
Canadian Colleges of Veterinary Medicine.

I'm in Saskatoon and have been to our university vet clinic with a family dog years ago.

I sure pray for your babies. Keep us updated.

Thank you. I will.

 

[Maddie]

Well there we go! Five lol still not very many. Apparently we don't make very many vets up here XD

 

[meandmytwo]

That sure is right, not very many. Wish it was more.

 

[Hairless Blessing]

@Hairless Blessing there are only two vet schools in all of Canada, if I'm not mistaken. So do you mean that or where they teach vet tech? Just curious I know the states is different

College of medicine. There is usually two on the campus.
One for small animals and one for large animals.
It's a University, a College of Veterinary Medicine.
Yes, College students do their clinical there, if they, are
going to be Vet's. There Is many specialists there in every
animal part, that teaches. You see the Vet's, and they are
the best. They are updated about all things immediately.

 

[Maddie]

Ok that's what I assumed well apparently Canada has only 5, so not too accessible sadly, to everyone at least

 

[Mariechovi]

Is a Sphynx considered an exotic? We have an exotic vet local.

 

[meandmytwo]

We are one week in to our slow introduction of raw.

I am now adding .5 ounce of raw to their 3 ounces of canned (per meal). Next week I will start mixing the food 1 ounce of raw to 2 ounces of canned. And keep increasing from there. It's Primal frozen nuggets, turkey.

I'm adding Fortiflora and Lysine (I have done so before but not consistently - this time I will stick with it). I also added Lactoferrin for the first time this morning as it came in the mail yesterday.

Poos are, I guess, what is normal for them. Still varieties of soft, but mostly formed as it exits :watching:. Also slightly less smelly which I can't attribute to raw yet (I don't think) but is a signal that the infection (toxins) may be gone - hoping! With the change in food and additional supplements no diarrhea is a good thing at least. (y)

I spoke with my vet a few days again and they are on board. I see two vets at the same clinic (whoever is available at the time), a woman and a man, so I refer to my vet as they .
They are not proponents of feeding raw only because of the dangers it can pose to humans and believe in commercial food being the standard (like many vets). But they do agree that if feeding raw is someones preference for any reason and it is done properly it's entirely better than fine.

Oh, I also gave them each a bite of raw salmon a few days ago (before I seasoned/cooked it for my own dinner) and they LOVED it and had no ill effects.

 

[meandmytwo]

This is going very well. The infection is certainly cleared up, at least no symptoms remain.

We are 1 month into the transition to raw. They are loving it! (My boys have never been picky eaters and have eaten everything I have ever tried). They are eating 3 oz of raw each, twice a day (7 am and 10 pm) - total of 6 oz each daily. I am still adding a tablespoon of their canned food into it for good measure as I have a few cans left to use up. They still get the grain free kibble twice a day as a snack. They share 1/3 cup each time (2pm and 5 pm). Once in awhile I notice that Frost skips one of the snack times (a couple times a week) but Freeway is always in there and quickly. (Auto feeder that I can watch via built in camera.)

Their poos have been totally consistent, so I assume that is what is normal/healthy for them. A bit on the soft side but formed.

In another week or so I will be comfortable adding a second protein! I'll try rabbit. I am going to stick with the commercially prepared raw for now, maybe for always. This thread has ended up being about our transition to raw. :joyful:

 

[Sheldon13]

I'm so glad to hear it! It's nice to hear that Wright is working out so well for them. They will absolutely adore rabbit… You will see ;-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[nudieluvr]

I don't know if trying raw food at this time is the best thing, seeing as that could have caused this problem, but for the sake of the other health benefits of raw (just to help my kitties be overall as healthy as possible) I feel I must. Especially after reading so many "raw stopped my cats diarrhea" stories.[/QUOTE

Do you know what recipe the breeder was using? Have you considered trying that as, I'm assuming, that it didn't cause upset? Do you know if any other kitties from the same litter are having the same kinds of problems?

 

[meandmytwo]

@nudieluvr
I am so sorry for overlooking your response from months ago. I was confused (dumb moment) because the whole thing looked like a quote.

My breeder uses a commercial food as well but it's designed more for breeders in that it is home delivered frozen in large portions. It was not practical for us. As for it's recipe I guess I just assumed it would be similar enough to what I could find in specialty pet stores, and my breeder concurred.

I do not know if any of their litter mates have had the same problem. Interestingly I do know who has one of them and I had thought about making contact. (It is an acquaintance of an acquaintance, so I'm not sure it's appropriate.) Suppose I should have, or still should, mention it to the breeder.

@Sheldon13
You are right! They love the rabbit so much they turn their noses up at the turkey now haha. I tried to sneak an ounce of turkey into 5 ounces of rabbit to use up the bag and they still knew it was there. I had to mask it all with FortiFlora - we still keep it on hand to use from time to time. If for nothing else but to entice them to eat proteins they are not fond of.