2015--No More Outcrossing?

[Bella07]

Hi everyone!

Well, I came across a question today and now I'm curious to know if any one has any more insight.

I was just on the CFA website and was going over the Sphynx Breed Standard. I read something that I don't remember seeing before. Under the
"Sphynx Allowable Outcross Breeds" it states;

American Shorthair, Domestic Shorthair/ Domestic Sphynx Outcross. Sphynx born on or after December 31, 2015 may have only Sphynx parents.

Does anyone know why this is? I know that Outcrossing is done for genetic variabity in the Sphynx breed. After 2015, is the CFA hoping that this will no longer be needed? Anyone have any insight to this?

Thank You! Enjoy your Saturday.

 

[MissMySphynxBoys]

From what I understand CFA's Sphynx Breed Council recommended that outcrossing come to an end in 2015 but I'm not familiar with all of the reasons behind it. I would have to do more digging but I suppose they want to make sure what is being called a Sphynx is a genetically solid, pure Sphynx.

 

[sphynxie]

No insight on this but it's very interesting- thanks for posting!

 

[ElGatoLoco]

Although I'm not into showing, I don't know if I agree. Plus, how would they go about checking?

 

[havingalook]

I'm sure the original date was 2011 but they've put it back.

I 'think' they are of the opinion that outcrossing won't be needed to widen the gene pool as it should be big enough by then (please correct me if I'm wrong, it's just snippets I remember when I researched last year.)

I remember trying to find out TICA's stance on it last year but couldn't find any information online.

 

[Bella07]

Thanks for the information Havingalook! Along with an end to outcrossing, hopefully by 2015, HCM will be a rare occurrence in the Sphynx breed. I tried to google why, but I found no other information. Perhaps I'll ask around at a show next time too.

Although I'm not into showing, I don't know if I agree. Plus, how would they go about checking?

When registering with an association, the breeders would have to register the sire and dam of the litter; That's how they would find out.

 

[Mews2much]

It was suppose to happen this year but they changed it.
There is still a chance it will not happen.

 

[bellasmom]

I am not a breeder however I think Im with you Bella07 and I dont really agree. To keep the breed from developing more health problems not just HCM I think outcrossing is still important. I would hate to see our breed end up like some of the dogs breeds out there that have horrible issues with health and most dont live past 9 yro. i.e the king charles(I LOVE THESE DOGS), boxer and bull dogs.

 

[Mews2much]

My Cleo is a ASH outcross.

 

[Bella07]

I am not a breeder however I think Im with you Bella07 and I dont really agree. To keep the breed from developing more health problems not just HCM I think outcrossing is still important. I would hate to see our breed end up like some of the dogs breeds out there that have horrible issues with health and most dont live past 9 yro. i.e the king charles(I LOVE THESE DOGS), boxer and bull dogs.

Oh my goodness I know! I am in absolute love with the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel---Several years ago, I was dead set on purchasing one. They have the personality and beauty, I just love them.

But, when I was looking into breeders a few years ago, I came across Syringomyelia (SM) and Heart mitral valve disease (MVD). These diseases are absolutely devestating, so the life span of owning a healthy CKCS is small....I couldn't find any reputable breeders that were fighting to stop these conditions, so my dream of owning a CKCS hasn't happened yet...Perhaps in the future though. That is what led me to my beautiful Golden Retriever It's just so sad.

 

[bellasmom]

Oh my goodness I know! I am in absolute love with the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel---Several years ago, I was dead set on purchasing one. They have the personality and beauty, I just love them.

But, when I was looking into breeders a few years ago, I came across Syringomyelia (SM) and Heart mitral valve disease (MVD). These diseases are absolutely devestating, so the life span of owning a healthy CKCS is small....I couldn't find any reputable breeders that were fighting to stop these conditions, so my dream of owning a CKCS hasn't happened yet.

I was the same way!! For years I looked for one. I love the tri-colored ones I saw a clip of one that was going through his problems with SM is so awful! I cried Since they have this issue with the skull sometimes the jaw does not form right either. One of my girlfriends has two of them and one for her littles guys had to have this crazy surgery and get his bottom jaw screwed together.

 

[Sleepyheadkitten]

Unfortunately, as much as out crossing brings in (hopefully) healthy gene pools into the breed- it does nothing to work towards the breed standard. Eventually, they have to close the stud book to outcrosses (ie stop allowing outcrosses to register). It happens in every breed- eventually.

What does this mean to US as Sphynx lovers? It means we need to support good breeders, we need to keep pressing for healthy kittens with health guarantees. We need to keep shoving back at the bad breeders who sell kittens that die within 12 months of coming home and then the breeders refuse to acknowledge your pain or your loss or to stop breeding the cats that have issues.

Will it be pushed back again? I don't know. I would PRESUME they are probably required to give a date to TICA with an end date to outcrossing and then when that date approaches, the breed group will discuss the pros and cons fully (and oh my, can breed groups get HEATED in their discussions!) and then decide what to suggest to TICA- extending the outcrossing or not.

 

[Bella07]

I was the same way!! For years I looked for one. I love the tri-colored ones I saw a clip of one that was going through his problems with SM is so awful! I cried Since they have this issue with the skull sometimes the jaw does not form right either. One of my girlfriends has two of them and one for her littles guys had to have this crazy surgery and get his bottom jaw screwed together.

Aawww, I feel so awful. They are such a beautiful and amazing breed of dog, yet there are hundreds of unscrupulous breeeders out there who could care less about these devastating health issues. Maybe in the future we need to become CKCS breeders and fight to end SM and MVD along with their other conditions...I adore the Blenheim Cavaliers, especially the ones with the ruby mark in the middle of their white top head They are all so gorgeous though!

What does this mean to US as Sphynx lovers? It means we need to support good breeders, we need to keep pressing for healthy kittens with health guarantees. We need to keep shoving back at the bad breeders who sell kittens that die within 12 months of coming home and then the breeders refuse to acknowledge your pain or your loss or to stop breeding the cats that have issues.

Thank You for the information! It's true, I never thought of it that way before. All outcrossing must come to an end at some point with every registered purebred breed. Yes! Out with the bad breeders and only in with the good. The Sphynx breed deserves nothing but the best of the best.

 

[Gullivers Keeper]

I think new standards need to be set and genetic health needs to be part of it, and awards stripped when an animal comes down with a genetic problem. Imo.

 

[ypvsypvs]

It's already been like that for 2 years here.
No outcrossing allowed without a special permit that is quite hard to get. You need to have a very good reason and end goal with it and still it would be hard.

 

[Sleepyheadkitten]

You can't PUNISH people for cats coming down with health problems though. Look at my Cole- he's a Grand Champion and I WILL Supreme him (my goal for the year or two!). Yet, he may eventually come down with HCM. Should I be punished for this? Should he be punished for this?

You really have to support the positive in people- and stay away from the negative. Punishing will never work.

And this goes back to- really, people need to take the time to get to know breeders and talk to them and be patient for what they want, but we are humans and we typically have NO PATIENCE! But when you develop a good relationship with a breeder, wait for the right baby to be born, etc, you have a better chance of coming out happy with your relationship as well as your new pet. Just clicking and buying an animal online because it is cute doesn't work!

(Example: I rescued two fuzzy kittens around Christmas. They are former ferals with hearts of gold. I posted pics of them on Craigslist and have been trying to weed out the potential homes from the crappy ones. You wouldn't believe the number of people who don't comprehend when I post 'NEEDS QUIET HOME WITHOUT CHILDREN'- that I MEAN 'needs a quiet home without children'. People see cute- and these boys are cuter then cute!- and want! They don't care what's best for them or for the kittens! Sorry, side rant!)

Anyways, my point is- you can't punish people for cats coming down with health problems. First- that would shut down the sharing of the cat community as is. The bad breeders- they don't share info. They won't tell anyone they have an HCM positive cat or have had kittens with HCM. A good breeder- they will say, "I've experienced this, I've seen that, etc." If you PUNISHED breeders and their lines, they'd shut up completely.

IE I get Cole's Supreme Grand title and then he develops HCM at 4 years of age- if I was breeding, he'd be due to be neutered by then as is. I wouldn't go and tell some Almighty Godlike Authority that my Supreme now has HCM- so that they could then strip him of the title.

Now, (I'm neutering Cole- so this is all hypothetical) if I had bred him nowadays, he develops HCM- YES, as a reputable breeder, I would tell everyone- this is what we've seen. PLEASE watch out for HCM in this breed and in these lines.

Hope that made some kind of sense. LOL. Sometimes, I just ramble to hear myself type, I think

 

[Gullivers Keeper]

You can't PUNISH people for cats coming down with health problems though. Look at my Cole- he's a Grand Champion and I WILL Supreme him (my goal for the year or two!). Yet, he may eventually come down with HCM. Should I be punished for this? Should he be punished for this?

You really have to support the positive in people- and stay away from the negative. Punishing will never work.

And this goes back to- really, people need to take the time to get to know breeders and talk to them and be patient for what they want, but we are humans and we typically have NO PATIENCE! But when you develop a good relationship with a breeder, wait for the right baby to be born, etc, you have a better chance of coming out happy with your relationship as well as your new pet. Just clicking and buying an animal online because it is cute doesn't work!

(Example: I rescued two fuzzy kittens around Christmas. They are former ferals with hearts of gold. I posted pics of them on Craigslist and have been trying to weed out the potential homes from the crappy ones. You wouldn't believe the number of people who don't comprehend when I post 'NEEDS QUIET HOME WITHOUT CHILDREN'- that I MEAN 'needs a quiet home without children'. People see cute- and these boys are cuter then cute!- and want! They don't care what's best for them or for the kittens! Sorry, side rant!)

Anyways, my point is- you can't punish people for cats coming down with health problems. First- that would shut down the sharing of the cat community as is. The bad breeders- they don't share info. They won't tell anyone they have an HCM positive cat or have had kittens with HCM. A good breeder- they will say, "I've experienced this, I've seen that, etc." If you PUNISHED breeders and their lines, they'd shut up completely.

IE I get Cole's Supreme Grand title and then he develops HCM at 4 years of age- if I was breeding, he'd be due to be neutered by then as is. I wouldn't go and tell some Almighty Godlike Authority that my Supreme now has HCM- so that they could then strip him of the title.

Now, (I'm neutering Cole- so this is all hypothetical) if I had bred him nowadays, he develops HCM- YES, as a reputable breeder, I would tell everyone- this is what we've seen. PLEASE watch out for HCM in this breed and in these lines.

Hope that made some kind of sense. LOL. Sometimes, I just ramble to hear myself type, I think

Its not punishing, bad health should be as bad as a bad wisker pad or no pot belly. I guess I don't understand how a genetically flawed animal could be the standard for a breed. It sucks all that matters are looks, that's how the problem got this bad to begin with

 

[Gullivers Keeper]

Also I think good breeders would share information no matter what and would understand that a breed standard is perfect inside and out... IMO

 

[Sleepyheadkitten]

LOL- I think if you punished people for health problems that they have actively worked on breeding out of a breed, you are going to kill the cat fancy.

Really. How would it help to strip a cat of its titles if it comes down with HCM? How would this be enforced? Since vets do not report to the registries, there is no way the information would travel from vet office to registry- unless the breeder volunteered it.

And knowing breeders of many many different breeds- and many excellent breeders- I do not think many would volunteer to have their cats titles stripped just to make other people feel better. Regardless of health- those cats DID earn those titles and so did the owners.

I'm just not understanding how this would help the breed? The HCM databases- those help the breed. Stripping a cat of its titles? How far would this go? Will we strip a cat of its title if it gets HCM? Then what about cancer? What about kidney disease? What about... etc, etc, etc?

(I'm not being obstinate- I'm just not understanding how this would help. I could see if you wanted a mark on the registration number indicating a cat's HCM status- that way you could easily see it on the pedigree, but stripping the title would only make a cat that an owner put time and money into look like it's nontitled- that doesn't matter. How many cats on your own cat's pedigree are not a Champion, Grand, etc?)

 

[Bella07]

Sleepyheadkitten, you made perfect sense to me!

I really do believe that stricter breeding standards need to be set. I know that this may not be completely realistic, but these are ideas that always linger in my mind.

As I said, I'm not sure if this is realistic....But, I believe that "Rules" need to be set if you wish to register your cat with the CFA or TICA. For example, if you are a Sphynx breeder, then you must annually screen your breeding cats for HCM. Your Dam and Sire must be scanned for PKD, negative results. And so forth. Especially for the most prominent life-threatening conditions. And if the breeder fails to do any of the above mentioned, then that breeder is ineligible to continue registering with these associations per litter of kittens.

That way, awareness can be brought to any potential owner who plans to buy from a breeder. Hhhhmm....Not sure if that makes sense with how I wrote it. I just really believe that stricter standards need to be set. There are hundreds of wonderful, reputable breeders out there. Yet, there are hundreds horrible breeders out there at the same time...As I said before, we need to be out with the bad, and only in with the good!

 

[Gizzymom]

LOL- I think if you punished people for health problems that they have actively worked on breeding out of a breed, you are going to kill the cat fancy.

Really. How would it help to strip a cat of its titles if it comes down with HCM? How would this be enforced? Since vets do not report to the registries, there is no way the information would travel from vet office to registry- unless the breeder volunteered it.

And knowing breeders of many many different breeds- and many excellent breeders- I do not think many would volunteer to have their cats titles stripped just to make other people feel better. Regardless of health- those cats DID earn those titles and so did the owners.

I'm just not understanding how this would help the breed? The HCM databases- those help the breed. Stripping a cat of its titles? How far would this go? Will we strip a cat of its title if it gets HCM? Then what about cancer? What about kidney disease? What about... etc, etc, etc?

(I'm not being obstinate- I'm just not understanding how this would help. I could see if you wanted a mark on the registration number indicating a cat's HCM status- that way you could easily see it on the pedigree, but stripping the title would only make a cat that an owner put time and money into look like it's nontitled- that doesn't matter. How many cats on your own cat's pedigree are not a Champion, Grand, etc?)

I cannot speak for Anita... but this is what I took from what she is saying...

The fact that some gorgeous titled sphynx started this whole HCM mess is the problem. Some of these "perfect" specimens on the outside, when diagnosed with HCM will still be bred because of their traits and the kittens of this "champion" will bring the breeder buku bucks... regardless of their helth status. So I think what Anita is trying to say if they don't have the title, the breeder will not be so eager to breed them for their "champion" offspring. But again, breeders lie... to keep the lines "pretty". That is sad. I think that vets should be required to register cats that have been diagnosed with HCM and if they fail to do so, face repercussions including possible license suspension. If you take it out of the breeders hands, they cannot be dishonest.

Just a thought.

 

[havingalook]

I have a couple of outcross girls, when done responsibly I think it can be a very good thing.

I don't like the hidden outcrossing though, that is done 'behind closed doors.' There are a lot of long faced Sphynx cats which I really do think must have Siamese cat genes added just to get blue eyes.

I think there is a really thin line between outcrossing for health/ wider gene pool and losing the typey Sphynx look.

 

[Sleepyheadkitten]

Oh, I think stricter standards would be nice, but I think the only way they could be enforced is if the Sphynx community, as a whole, creates an organization willing to do the legwork on enforcement.

IE- an organization is created that permits ONLY HCM scanning breeders to enroll. Within the dues for the organization, people would need to be researching pedigrees, ensuring information is accurate, ensuring HCM scans are official, etc. One issue with this, however, is that too many people let their petty issues get in the way of taking care of the breed- and I could easily see people refusing to register 'said breeder's' cats because they don't like that person.

 

[Gullivers Keeper]

Oh, I think stricter standards would be nice, but I think the only way they could be enforced is if the Sphynx community, as a whole, creates an organization willing to do the legwork on enforcement.

IE- an organization is created that permits ONLY HCM scanning breeders to enroll. Within the dues for the organization, people would need to be researching pedigrees, ensuring information is accurate, ensuring HCM scans are official, etc. One issue with this, however, is that too many people let their petty issues get in the way of taking care of the breed- and I could easily see people refusing to register 'said breeder's' cats because they don't like that person.

YES YES YES YES YES THIS IS WHAT I MEAN!!! Your right people would resist, but then buyers would have a choice to only get cats that are registered to this organization, and I for one would pay more to get a cat from a breeder that has full HCM disclosure... THIS WILL NOT BE EASY, but most really good things are not easy!! There will have to be a panel of people that register so that the issues you speak of are minimized

p.s Jody is correct in saying I do not believe a cat with life threating genetic disorder should be an example of a perfect breed standard, plan and simple. People would be more careful of what they breed if they know titles could be stripped.

 

[Bella07]

I agree; I think that outcrossing can be a great thing, especially for furthering the development of a new breed through responsible and regulated breeding practices.

I suppose that we will just have to wait and see what 2015 brings concerning outcrossing and the sphynx breed then!

Oh, I think stricter standards would be nice, but I think the only way they could be enforced is if the Sphynx community, as a whole, creates an organization willing to do the legwork on enforcement.

Shall we be the start of that Sphynx community? Well this is all good food for thought! Just have to keep spreading the word on what buying from a supportive and reputable breeder really means.