Raw and tummy issues?

[Izzy17]

Me again.. sorry :/

I called the store selling raw food in my area and the guy I spoke with suggested chicken which includes chicken bones, pork hearth, pork liver, cooked eggs and taurine (purrfect Pro mix)

My vets keep saying Izzy issue is most likely having food allergy or intolerances and I keep reading that chicken is one of the biggest allergens for sphynxes... I also read that pork is not great for sphynx..?

The guy at the store says if a cat has an issue wih chicken in commercial food, it might not be an issue with raw chicken as its not processed... does this makes sense?

Should i go ahead with his suggestions (I mean hes been doing the raw stuff way longer than I have and he seemed to know things about sphynxes...) or stick to something completely oposite like rabbit or venison?

He said he never suggest to start with the super expensive ones but to try the chicken first and see if she has a reaction or not, before jumping to different meat options, as raw is so different from whatever is offered commercially in canned food.

And I’m honestly feeling like it’s clear as mud gor me right now, when it comes to knowing whats best and whats not lol

Really appreciate your help with all this!!

 

[Condo commando]

It's best to stick to a single ingredient; that way if there is a problem you can narrow down what it could be. So chicken alone is better than chicken mixed with other stuff.

Then also, pork is one of the meats that some cats can be allergic to. It's not really a natural diet for them....picture a cat chasing after a pig. Poultry and rabbit are more their style. That being said, I'm only saying avoid pork and beef in the beginning, and eventually you can test it to see if your cat tolerates it. It's usually recommended to rotate the proteins so if your cat tolerates pork or beef, then an occasional meal is fine.

I've read the thing with chicken allergies but I think it is probably often not the chicken but other things about the food. Some cats are allergic just like anyone of us can be allergic to chicken, but it should be few. I wouldn't avoid chicken completely; you should at least try it.

The guy at the store...I agree with him. Kibble is the most processed. Cans not so much but still it's processed. The more a food is processed, the more it becomes a mutant version of its original self. Usually the processing removes the stuff you wanted to be in the food, so then the manufacturers add other things to compensate. So for example the processing wipes out the vitamins and minerals from the meat source and the manufacturers add in plant-based vitamins and minerals. It's not the same; cats don't metabolize them the same way.

Another problem is that cats can have allergies towards certain things like corn or wheat gluten, but these are common fillers in commercial pet foods. And manufacturers practice "ingredient splitting" so for example peas become peas, pea flour and pea fiber. They do it in such away that the % of each thing is lower so the first ingredient in the food is what the consumer wants to see.

Raw food by its nature is hard to "fake"

The final thing to consider is that sometimes the cat's gut isn't healthy. You can add some probiotics to the food to see if it helps heal the gut. If it is damaged, then anything that goes in is going to get a poor reaction.

This is my suggestion which you are of course free to take or leave, get a single protein source if you can. If you can't, then try the chicken and pork because at least it's raw but don't buy a lot at first just in case.

 

[Izzy17]

It's best to stick to a single ingredient; that way if there is a problem you can narrow down what it could be. So chicken alone is better than chicken mixed with other stuff.

Then also, pork is one of the meats that some cats can be allergic to. It's not really a natural diet for them....picture a cat chasing after a pig. Poultry and rabbit are more their style. That being said, I'm only saying avoid pork and beef in the beginning, and eventually you can test it to see if your cat tolerates it. It's usually recommended to rotate the proteins so if your cat tolerates pork or beef, then an occasional meal is fine.

I've read the thing with chicken allergies but I think it is probably often not the chicken but other things about the food. Some cats are allergic just like anyone of us can be allergic to chicken, but it should be few. I wouldn't avoid chicken completely; you should at least try it.

The guy at the store...I agree with him. Kibble is the most processed. Cans not so much but still it's processed. The more a food is processed, the more it becomes a mutant version of its original self. Usually the processing removes the stuff you wanted to be in the food, so then the manufacturers add other things to compensate. So for example the processing wipes out the vitamins and minerals from the meat source and the manufacturers add in plant-based vitamins and minerals. It's not the same; cats don't metabolize them the same way.

Another problem is that cats can have allergies towards certain things like corn or wheat gluten, but these are common fillers in commercial pet foods. And manufacturers practice "ingredient splitting" so for example peas become peas, pea flour and pea fiber. They do it in such away that the % of each thing is lower so the first ingredient in the food is what the consumer wants to see.

Raw food by its nature is hard to "fake"

The final thing to consider is that sometimes the cat's gut isn't healthy. You can add some probiotics to the food to see if it helps heal the gut. If it is damaged, then anything that goes in is going to get a poor reaction.

This is my suggestion which you are of course free to take or leave, get a single protein source if you can. If you can't, then try the chicken and pork because at least it's raw but don't buy a lot at first just in case.

Thank you so much!!

 

[Condo commando]

Thank you so much!!

Very welcome - good luck!

 

[TheTopaz]

We have been feeding raw for awhile now and we primarily feed raw beef and pork. The lesser food additives and processed food in his diet, the healthier our cats seem to get. Raw chicken seems to bother him still and he will get mild skin flare ups (not as bad as the processed chicken), but not other proteins, other poultry. I probably would not feed raw pork if you live outside of the US/Canada.

One of my cats has, prior to a raw diet had been very lean most of his life and would not gain weight no matter how large the meals were. When we switched to raw diet his skin got so much clearer and he finally started to gain a healthy amount of weight (even with HCM and now CHF).

I recommend starting a transitioning to raw with EZComplete, to start with. EZComplete helps both you, as the person mixing the food by making the process a little simpler - already has the bone, probiotics, and organ meats in a powder. They offer a lot of support in the raw transition process online (they also have a helpful "raw feeding for ibd cats" support group on FB).

It took us a while to get used to feeding raw and making the meals, and a while for the cats to enjoy it. There are also a few brands of raw dehydrated foods nowadays or ready-made raw in the refrigerator section. All are good options too, but only EZComplete allows you to have more control which proteins and have more control with isolating.

Whatever you decide, wishing you & the cats all the best!

 

[Condo commando]

That's interesting @TheTopaz, I had not heard of EZcomplete but I do make my cats' food. I use Alnutrin and a lot of people here use Better In The Raw (BITR). It looks like the same concept. It's nice to see that there are more and more of us joining the movement to species-appropriate food.

 

[Sheldon13]

My advice is to start with rabbit simply because most cats will take to it easily, even if they are having a hard time being interested in raw.


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[Izzy17]

Sooooo.... good news and less good news so far... tried giving her some raw yesterday and this morning (purrfect pro mix chicken and pork mixed with a little bit of salmon and tripes)... she smelled it for what seemed to be forever but didnt touch it... when i mixed it in her wet food, she ate it

I’m going to try and put it in a bag in hot water tonight just to warm it up a bit (tried microwave yesterday but it cooked it

So good news shes eating it mixed in... bad news she wont touch it on its own.. hoping this is just an adjustment period and we’ll slowly transition to only raw at some point

On a side note the store gave me a rabbit ear for her.. told me its like a bone for dog (came dried, with the fur on it) and she kinda went crazy for it lol. Been chewing on it all evening and all morning before I left they also gave me tiny dried sardines and I had to give her one to see if she liked it and I’m not ever sure she chewed it before inhaling it :cat: think i found my new healthy treats!!

 

[Condo commando]

Bonus - rabbit ears with fur are natural fiber. Second bonus - sardine is a great source of omega 3.

Yeah, they don't all take to raw food right away. If warming the food a little bit doesn't do the trick you can try to sprinkle some parmesan cheese on it. Mixing it with canned food and little by little decreasing the % of canned food is actually what most people have to do.

 

[Izzy17]

Bonus - rabbit ears with fur are natural fiber. Second bonus - sardine is a great source of omega 3.

Yeah, they don't all take to raw food right away. If warming the food a little bit doesn't do the trick you can try to sprinkle some parmesan cheese on it. Mixing it with canned food and little by little decreasing the % of canned food is actually what most people have to do.

Yeah she had an allergic reaction to the chicken so we had to discontinue it and find a new protein Its too bad cause the chicken was a mix that came with the supplement and all.. now we went for llama but theres no supplement just full carcass... so now I have to figure out what to add.. and how much of it :/ and I can’t seem to find this info..

Am i supposed to use human supplement? Just taurine or also vitamine e and b complex?

 

[Condo commando]

How do you know it's the chicken? That food had pork and other ingredients. Also, it takes a good 2-3 months to flush whatever allergens are already in their system.

That being said, one of our members has posted a guide to making raw food at home. It's very important to do it right and not deprive the cat of critical vitamins and chemicals that could lead to more problems.

Raw Cat Food Information

 

[Sheldon13]

Try Alnutrin. The mixing info comes on the package.


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[Condo commando]

Try Alnutrin. The mixing info comes on the package.


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I use Alnutrin too.

 

[Izzy17]

I think its the chicken because its the common ingredient in the food she had issues with in the past. It could be pork but
Porc was only present in the form of the heart and liver. Regardless I think Id prefer to stay away from these two and give her something with less allergic potential such as duck or rabbit or venison.. I get that its more expensive but at this point it would still be cheaper than the vet and i’d rather see her healthy without any types of discomfort.

We decided to try the llama because the lady at the store said that’s what her sphynx seemed to like the most when she started feeding them raw. I read online on the product and it’s the whole carcass with organs and bone so I just need to get supplement to add to it.

I’ll look into alnutrin!! Thanks!

 

[Izzy17]

Try Alnutrin. The mixing info comes on the package.


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Thanks!! I’ll look into this!

 

[Condo commando]

I think its the chicken because its the common ingredient in the food she had issues with in the past. It could be pork but
Porc was only present in the form of the heart and liver. Regardless I think Id prefer to stay away from these two and give her something with less allergic potential such as duck or rabbit or venison.. I get that its more expensive but at this point it would still be cheaper than the vet and i’d rather see her healthy without any types of discomfort.

We decided to try the llama because the lady at the store said that’s what her sphynx seemed to like the most when she started feeding them raw. I read online on the product and it’s the whole carcass with organs and bone so I just need to get supplement to add to it.

I’ll look into alnutrin!! Thanks!

You shouldn't assume that you can mix a supplement with just any whole carcass and it will all work out fine. You must have the right % of muscle meat, liver, and bones. For example, chicken carcass is about 25% bone which is way too much bone so it needs some boneless meat to be added to the carcass to balance it out. If not you will do more harm than good.

 

[Xandria]

@Izzy17 -- As I mentioned in my IM, if you want to use a llama carcass, you need to find someone who has a tried and true recipe involving llama carcass that's specifically designed for cats. If you want to use a meat protein, then Alnutrin or Better in the Raw are a very easy way to make cat food. But you have to follow the recipes and directions.

@Condo commando -- OMG, I brought dried rabbit ears home ONCE. Max snatched up both pieces (one for Min, one for him), growled and ran away to wolf them both back. I couldn't take them away. ha ha ha. Clearly it's good food.

 

[Izzy17]

@Xandria I’m confused... I didn’t buy a llama carcass at the butcher to make my own food... I went to a pet store which sells raw food for pets and they have frozen raw meat (rabbit, elk, venison, chicken, etc) and one of them is llama which is what we got... so why do I need to worry about the ratio of meat vs bones vs organs... didn’t they do that when they made the pet food and packaged it for sale? And when you say “if you want to use a meat protein”... isn’t llama a meat protein?!

I read on Alnutrin website and my understanding was that once I bought the commercial raw food from the pet store, which includes the bones and organs, I could just add the supplements from alnutrin and follow their instructions as they didn’t add any extra supplements in the food I bought at the pet store

 

[Xandria]

@Izzy17 -- I think I'm confused too then! LOL

I'm going to copy and paste some relevant material from the Raw Food Information PDF mentioned above.

Three Raw Food Diet Options
1. Make food with raw ingredients (Animal plus Nutritional Supplements).
2. Make food with raw Animal (with or without bone) plus Nutritional Mix-in (e.g., Better in the Raw or Alnutrin).
3. Purchase ready-made commercially available raw food (freeze-dried and/or frozenfresh). ​

If you have purchased ready-made raw food then you DO NOT need to add other nutrients.

If you have purchased just the protein meat (no added organs, nutrients, bones, etc.) then you can either (one or the other):

1. Make food with raw ingredients (Animal plus Nutritional Supplements).
2. Make food with raw Animal (with or without bone) plus Nutritional Mix-in (e.g., Better in the Raw or Alnutrin).

What are the ingredients on the package of llama you purchased? That will indicate whether it's just the llama meat or if they combined the meat with necessary nutrients.

Hope that helps!

 

[Izzy17]

@Xandria ahhh ok lol Below is the description of what I bought


Description

Carnivora follows the whole prey model which imitates what your pet would naturally be eating. The llama diet is a great novelty protein to try for dogs and cats with allergies. This formula does not contain any veggies, making it suitable for cats. Carnivora’s llama diet is recommended as part of a rotational diet including other white and red proteins along with tripe and raw bones! If you have a picky kitty, try out the single size or go for the 25lb bulk box for a great value!

Ingredients: finely ground whole llama carcass, bone, and organ

Crude Protein minimum 15.45%
Crude Fat minimum 4.40%
Crude Fiber maximim 0.02%
Moisture maximum 68.20%
Calcium minimum 0.65%
Phosphorus minimum 0.47%

So this means I don’t need additional supplements? Everything is already included in there? Or should I still add taurine and omega 3?

I’m not ready to make my own food yet.. I wanna see if she will eat raw first and which protein she likes better... and maybe one day transition to making my own

 

[Xandria]

@Izzy17 -- I look forward to @Condo commando 's comments (say that three times fast).

If they didn't add taurine, then I'd hazard to say there is sufficient quantity in there naturally. The same could be said for omega 3 fats. I don't know enough about llamas! LOL

The only thing I am uncertain of is Vitamin E, which is usually added via egg yolks or supplements. But I don't see harm in feeding it as is.

 

[Izzy17]

:happy:

@Izzy17 -- I look forward to @Condo commando 's comments (say that three times fast).

If they didn't add taurine, then I'd hazard to say there is sufficient quantity in there naturally. The same could be said for omega 3 fats. I don't know enough about llamas! LOL

The only thing I am uncertain of is Vitamin E, which is usually added via egg yolks or supplements. But I don't see harm in feeding it as is.

Ok thanks!! Good to know
I can definitely add egg yolk and or fish oil or sardines to her food if needed! Whatever is best for my little pain in the butt :cat:

 

[Izzy17]

Ok thanks!! Good to know
I can definitely add egg yolk and or fish oil or sardines to her food if needed! Whatever is best for my little pain in the butt :cat:

 

[Condo commando]

@Izzy17 I think @Xandria and I are having the same difficulty in saying "sure go ahead" because we don't know enough about the llama meat.

A very important thing about cat food is that it must have a ratio of calcium to phosphorus of around 1.2 to 1. The only thing we know from that llama nutrition label is that there is a MINIMUM .65% calcium and .47% phosphorus. If those were EXACT amounts the ratio would be 1.38 to 1 ...a little high but not the end of the world. But the problem is that those are minimums. Since bone (calcium) is cheaper than meat (phosphorus), if the food company is trying to watch their bottom line like a normal business, there is going to be MORE than the minimum calcium and just BARELY the minimum of phosphorus. The first sign of too much calcium/bone is constipation. If that happens, you could add a little bit of just boneless meat either mixed in or as a separate feeding to the food rotation. Every single meal doesn't have to be balanced, but at least on a weekly basis everything together should balance out.

By the way, Alnutrin assumes that there is liver in your recipe so it doesn't have any Vitamin A. I would make sure that the llama includes liver. Organ can be anything.

The only other thing that Alnutrin doesn't have is omega 3's. Assuming you aren't going to buy raw sardines, the easiest way to do omega 3's is to feed canned sardines packed in water (not olive oil or anything else). All it takes is 1 to 2 ounces of sardines per week.

This is all I got. Good luck.

 

[Izzy17]

@Izzy17 I think @Xandria and I are having the same difficulty in saying "sure go ahead" because we don't know enough about the llama meat.

A very important thing about cat food is that it must have a ratio of calcium to phosphorus of around 1.2 to 1. The only thing we know from that llama nutrition label is that there is a MINIMUM .65% calcium and .47% phosphorus. If those were EXACT amounts the ratio would be 1.38 to 1 ...a little high but not the end of the world. But the problem is that those are minimums. Since bone (calcium) is cheaper than meat (phosphorus), if the food company is trying to watch their bottom line like a normal business, there is going to be MORE than the minimum calcium and just BARELY the minimum of phosphorus. The first sign of too much calcium/bone is constipation. If that happens, you could add a little bit of just boneless meat either mixed in or as a separate feeding to the food rotation. Every single meal doesn't have to be balanced, but at least on a weekly basis everything together should balance out.

By the way, Alnutrin assumes that there is liver in your recipe so it doesn't have any Vitamin A. I would make sure that the llama includes liver. Organ can be anything.

The only other thing that Alnutrin doesn't have is omega 3's. Assuming you aren't going to buy raw sardines, the easiest way to do omega 3's is to feed canned sardines packed in water (not olive oil or anything else). All it takes is 1 to 2 ounces of sardines per week.

This is all I got. Good luck.

Thanks!