Unwell kitty.

[Helen]

My kitty Moth has been unwell for a couple of days. We tried a new mince from the butchers which had a higher fat content and it seems to have really disagreed with him. All the other obligatory carnivores in my home were fed the same meal and they are all in perfect health.

I make my own home made raw, but when trying a new protine or organ meat etc I feed it as a singular meal in order to not compromise a batch made with ingredients I am already sure everyone will eat. Nobody wants 2kg of food going to waste.

Moth had a upset stomach three times in one night over about a 8hr period not awfull awfull but very smelly and since then has been off his food. I fed his favourite pheasant the morning after which he gobbled up, he then left half the evening meal and had a runny smelly bathroom again.

Although he seems more himself the last couple of days. He also had a drink from my water glass which is very unusual for him as a raw fed cat.

Today I gave him his favourite tinned salmon with extra water to help with any dehydration, he ate maybe a 3rd. He really isn't a fussy kitty when it comes to food and is otherwise in really good health he was checked over at the vets less the six weeks ago and wormed.

I am contemplating feeding cooked chicken and the highest quality canned food I can get in Europe and then once his stomach settles after a few weeks going back to our raw meals.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Catzzzmeow]

Sorry to hear Moth is not feeling well. He is telling you he is not happy with the food and unfortunately his body is also telling you the same thing. I think it sounds like a solid plan. For now he needs to eat and get nutrients. If he does not do well after going back to raw again, then he just might be telling you it is not for him.

 

[Hairless Blessing]

Hope your baby feels better soon.

 

[MollysMom]

Was it a new protein source as well? I know that them ingesting a higher fat diet can cause pancreatitis. I don't know that one meal would make a difference though.

 

[admin]

My kitty Moth has been unwell for a couple of days. We tried a new mince from the butchers which had a higher fat content and it seems to have really disagreed with him. All the other obligatory carnivores in my home were fed the same meal and they are all in perfect health.

I make my own home made raw, but when trying a new protine or organ meat etc I feed it as a singular meal in order to not compromise a batch made with ingredients I am already sure everyone will eat. Nobody wants 2kg of food going to waste.

Moth had a upset stomach three times in one night over about a 8hr period not awfull awfull but very smelly and since then has been off his food. I fed his favourite pheasant the morning after which he gobbled up, he then left half the evening meal and had a runny smelly bathroom again.

Although he seems more himself the last couple of days. He also had a drink from my water glass which is very unusual for him as a raw fed cat.

Today I gave him his favourite tinned salmon with extra water to help with any dehydration, he ate maybe a 3rd. He really isn't a fussy kitty when it comes to food and is otherwise in really good health he was checked over at the vets less the six weeks ago and wormed.

I am contemplating feeding cooked chicken and the highest quality canned food I can get in Europe and then once his stomach settles after a few weeks going back to our raw meals.

What are your thoughts?

Also, have any bugs been ruled out? Is it a new kitty? I agree with @Catzzzmeow - he must have food so what ever it takes, I think a good quality wet will be enough and kibble if you prefer.

 

[Condo commando]

Is he a kitten still? I've read that kittens' immune system is not fully developed so I would be careful about introducing new things. Also be extra careful about how long meat has been left out, again because of their immune system.

 

[Helen]

It was a ground chicken carcuses including skin with additional chicken hearts.
When he first came home he only ate muscle meat (chicken and beef) so in theory if what I know is true he has been eating chicken for over eight months. Over the last two months I introduced him to additional protines such as lamb and pheasant and the required organ meats all with no issue he really isn't fussy and is the equivalent of a human foodie.

However what I did observe was that regardless of being on raw his bathrooms still smell strong but he toilets as you'd expect every two days or so but does big wees every day. I suspected that he may have a sensetiviety to a certain protine so have been planing to do a single protine elimination diet. Chicken being at the top of my list with a question.
The reason his original....3rd family...*shakes head* put him onto the muscle meat was because on commercial food his toilets are horrendous as in very strong in smell but I have no idea of the quality of the commercial food cheap branded or other wise.

I enjoy feeding a species appropriate diet but am becoming more and more disinchanted with the paracisdic risk in supermarket meat, which is why we were trying the independent butchers perhaps because Moth seems really sensetive. I have been asleep for a few hours and he has just woke me with his baby cry and playing football with a crinkle ball its 12.30 in the evening but I couldn't care less I am just glad he is feeling more himself.

I have been contemplating a vet trip, however when we attended around 7 weeks ago I was told he was in perfect health.
I have a strong feeling that this is completely food related so I want to see how we get along in the next week or so and enquire about the price of testing on his toilets for unusual worms which aren't treated by the really good vetinary wormer I used last month.

Thus far he finished off his fresh tinned salmon which I added water too.
We cooked him up some chicken leg meat and portioned it into little tubs for the next four meals.
An I have enquired into a fair amout of high quality canned with the happy kitty company and zooplus.

In terms of my origional plan I am going to make him up a batch of lamb (lamb mince, lamb heart, lamb kidney, lamb liver) a singular protine food I can easily get my hands on and then work from there.

I am just glad he is feeding better.

He is two years and two months.

 

[Xandria]

Sorry to hear about the issues you are having. Are you buying all meats from one butcher or did you recently switch?

I had an issue over the recent holidays where I picked up some chicken from another butcher (my regular was unavailable) and Max wouldn't eat it at all. He sniffed it and I knew right away something was wrong with it.

Could Moth have just had a bad batch?

 

[Helen]

It is my regular butcher where I buy the majority of my offel and mince for the ferrets and Moth.
And chicken wings for the dogs. The butcher is friendly and helpful and started making his own mince which is ground up 'human grade' chicken carcuses including the skin, perfect I thought as for the most part I can't get the ferrets to eat the bone content they require in there daily diet via bone meals and they rather like slushy fine mince.
As the bag was so big I defrosted it and let everybody try some (the first meal the mince on its own the second with chicken hearts) as I expected with the dogs there bathrooms were lighter in colour due to the increased bone but a perfect consistency if a tad crumble all normal.

Ferrets there usual happy selves but moth has had this awful reaction possible due to the higher fat content in the meat.
After his day of salmon which is part desperation as I had only defrosted him duck necks and really wanted to get additional water into him after the suprise of him taking my water. The poops are liquid in form with some shape but don't smell horrific so borderline what I have come to expect if I feed him only fish which is very rare Normally he only has a small tin mixed over a 2kg batch it's his treat.

The cooked chicken is now in the fridge and I added in about 40ml of water to each tub which should hopefully just soak into the meat. Baring in mind that Moth doesn't drink water he consumes it all from his food, I normally add about 500ml of water to a 1kg batch of home made mince.

I am feeling disappointed with the mince as I am now not happy to feed it, moth was very happy to consume it and it looked like healthy mince.

Kitty's or just my animals In general make me worry so much about there health and happiness.
Moth will be in heaven if I produce cat food, he enjoys his meals but goes crazy if there is anything generic In the house I guess being so healthy is like living on carrot sticks.

I am going to order a small batch of the high quality raw and hopefully just top it with the cooked chicken.
An then once we are going along happily I will add in lamb meals.

I just have absolutely everything crossed that his bathrooms on the high quality canned are okay.
Pix my dog always did brilliant on high quality canned, we tried home made but I could never get it right for her she now has commercial raw with veggies and it suits her brilliantly, the veggies being what she needed.

At least he is like a little dustbin and unlikely to turn his nose up at my offerings.

 

[Helen]

I also wanted to say thank you so much for you lovely comments and heldpful attitudes.
I am going to really try hovering about more and being more involved in this little community.
I am a member on another forum, and contribute every week and have only had a handful of direct communications or acknowledgements of posts I think they are just very clique.

Which is just so frustrating which you want to be part of something.

Thank you lovelies your kindness is much appreicated.

 

[Xandria]

May I ask what kind of formula you are using for the raw? I'm by no means an expert, but I understand that percentages are important.

When Max first adjusted to raw it took a little while through soft poops before they became normal for raw. I also found changing his protein too frequently caused him tummy issues... but he is young.

 

[Helen]

I really thought I would have issues with moth as he had only been feed muscle meat and limited protine options chicken chunks and beef mince but the first time I made him up a batch he just ate it all. Recently he has eaten his meals so quickly he has been sick so I had had to make sure I stick to a feeding schedule and spread the food out on a flat plate so he can't eat huge mouthfuls.

This is off the top of my head and its 3am here in England but I should know this by now.

1kg of human grade mince (varied generic protines Turkey, Lamb or Beef)
400g of heart ( either whole chicken hearts, or large chunks of beef/lamb)
150g of liver (chicken or liver if typically what is available in my locality)
50g of a additional organ ( lamb kidney is my usual choice, however I now have access to a few additional options which are chicken protines gizzards....I can't remember the second)
A splash of salmon oil
Two whole eggs
Around 500ml of water ( I play this buy eye and typically just spoon in a figure of eight what the meat can absorb)
And half a tin of a soft boned fish (anything aside from tuna and in spring water)

In addition Moth has bone meals in the week, which is a meal replacement of either a chicken wing, a pheasant leg, duck neck for the 10% bone content.

I don't currently have the ability to chop up bones, I am physically disabled so I would need something industrial to do all the work for me. At the moment my friendly butcher portions the chicken wings for me or my partner debones the joints, my friend chops up the pheasant legs for me and then I just trim the meat as they can be rather large.

 

[Helen]

I went ahead and ordered from The Happy Kitty Company the majority of there high quality grain free canned foods seems to be of german manufacturing, it is a well respected little independent company of anyone is interested but the postage is really steep.

I contemplated there trial order deal, but was concerned I wouldn't have enough I found with commercial foods you tend to need to feed more then the average recomended amount calculating in the addition for a Sphynx who eats substantially more regardless the food was unlikely to last beyond seven days which made me nervous. I tried to order two weeks worth but the shipping was hideously expensive around the £6 mark. So I ended up splurging on a months worth of food for over a months worth of food for £29. I also ordered some treats.

I have tried to stick with a budjet of around £1 per day as that is affordable long term, and I would want a Moth to take a liking to a food I couldn't afford to feed. If worst comes to worst and he doesn't like it I am sure the ferrets or the dogs will happy gobble up the rest as treat meals, or as gifts to the cats at the rescue where I volunteer on Mondays and Fridays.

For anyone interest in high quality premium canned available in the UK/Europe

I ordered MAC's, Om nom nom (the most expensive so only two tins), Grantata Pet, and Ropopcat (the cheapest, I only ordered a few cans incase i wasn't happy with the quality and didn't want to feed it)

Incase chicken is a protine sensetiviety for Moth I tried for the majority to order meals which didn't include this protine. I aimed for duck, rabbit, beef, lamb, pheasant and fish excluding anything which included even a tiny % of tuna.

 

[Condo commando]

Lots of writing here so let me see if I can hit on the points that I know a little about:

1. Ground carcass - my understanding is this is after meat has been removed right? I think carcass as such is too high in bone and needs to be mixed with some muscle meat. The ratio of calcium to phosphorus is very important; bone is calcium and meat is phosphorus. But bone is the best source of calcium and the skin has fat which cats need, so carcass is a great idea if you can mix it with some boneless ground meat to balance out the bone.

2. I'm not clear what you mean by "human grade mince" above....is that boneless meat? I myself feed meat with bone ground in (which luckily my butcher grinds for me). I really don't know if the random necks and wings provide enough calcium. I think 10-15% bone is a good target. If you want to have some assurance that you are doing the right thing, the next time you take Moth to the vet be sure to have a complete blood panel done that measures the calcium and phosphorus; if the numbers are fine then your recipe is fine.

3. I do think cooked meats are kinder on their digestive system so that's a good thing to try and see if his system gets corrected.

4. You can also try sprinkling a probiotic on his food - example: Fortiflora. I've used it before and I think it helps if there are problems with the digestive system.

5. In my raw recipe I use about 500 ml of water to 2kg of meat which I think is a good amount if they don't drink extra water from a bowl. I always have a water bowl out anyway, on an end table between 2 sofas in the living room so that it's very accessible. They don't hardly drink from it but I keep trying.

6. I believe ideally you want a ratio of 12 to 1 between muscle meat and organs and 10 to 1 is as low in muscle meat as one should go. From your recipe above, it looks like you are using 1400g muscle meat to 200g organ meat - a ratio of 7 to 1 - so I would cut out the extra organ and just go with the 150 grams of liver, maybe even a bit less. If you want to feed kidney, the next time you can use kidneys instead of liver. Don't worry about having a little bit of everything in every meal; it's more important that over time they get a little of everything.

7. I think adding some taurine would be a good idea. It comes in a loose powder. Of course hearts are a source of taurine but sometimes it's hard to source chicken hearts. Besides that, cats excrete any excess taurine so extra won't hurt them, while not enough is very bad.

8. Some people caution against raw egg whites because of salmonella. Raw yolks are fine. I'm not an expert on salmonella but if you wanted to make sure that it wasn't a factor I would either remove the whites or cook them. This would be extreme caution.

9. Don't worry about feeding every kind of animal - chicken, pheasant, duck, rabbit, lamb, etc. I used to do that but it was more complicated and my cats are fine with a few things. I give them mostly chicken and rabbit and some turkey whenever it's available. There's nothing wrong with variety, but I won't make myself crazy over it.

10. I think canned or tinned foods can be fine, and what I worry about is the ingredients and the source. For my homemade raw food, I buy meat from a butcher shop where everything is top quality and I know exactly what I put in the food when I make it. Also, I find that I can make food at home for less than what it costs in a store. All that said, if you can find a tinned food that you believe is good and is affordable, then by all means use it.

 

[Calicocious]

I think Condo commando covered most of what I would suggest. Did I see that you add fish to each one of your batches of food? That you might want to reconsider. It can problems with them absorbing taurine.
A couple of websites to check out if your interested are catinfo.com and feline-nutrition.org. I found both to be helpful. Hope your little one's tummy settles.