Lets not forget the basics

[ilovemysphynx]

With all the sick babies going to there forever homes I think that everyone should keep in mind that there is more to searching for a breeder than making sure they scan for HCM, although it is a big concern it seems like breeders and buyers are stressing on HCM these days and forgetting all the basics.
Things like cattery condition, and the condition of the parents. What illness have cats in the cattery been treated for. Can you call their vet and ask questions ect.
Please remember just because a breeder shows you a clear HCM scan does not mean your are buying a kitty that may not have any other health problems. It seems like other illness are being over looked because of all the stress on HCM and is very sad to see.
Breeders should have their cats overall health in mind but it seems these days that having a clear HCM scan sells cats. This is very sad for our beloved breed.

 

[susi794]

I agree that we still have to take a look at the rest of the picture...there are a lot of threats against these precious babies--HCM being only one of them.

 

[ilovemysphynx]

With hearing of another sick baby today it just got me thinking.
Yes HCM is important but not the only thing that needs to be looked at. I think there are people that have gotten the impression that if they see a clear scan they are getting a healthy cat and that is not always the case.

 

[Candys]

The buyer should request an all clear by the vet right before delivery of the kitten. This could help with a lot of these problems.

 

[danimcd]

yeah... that would be good! getting a all clear from the vet too! that's a great idea! i wonder how many actually have one of those...? i wonder if vets do this? i mean, i guess we all hope that people are nice enough to hand over a healthy naked... but as i've read some horror stories, that isn't always the case...
this is a really great point to make ilovemysphynx! and you are absolutly right, there are soooo many other major things that can effect our little ones!

 

[MissMySphynxBoys]

The buyer should request an all clear by the vet right before delivery of the kitten. This could help with a lot of these problems.

I agree. An "all clear" report is an especially a good idea if your kitten is to fly. Flying is stressful enough and the change in pressure can cause plugged ears and sinus pressure just as it can in humans. This will make matters worse for an already sick kitty.

I also highly recommend asking for references. Although the breeder is most likely to steer you towards buyers who had a positive experience, what they tell and how they answer your quesitons may be very insightful.

I also like to ask, "When was the last time your cattery experienced a death and what was the cause?" and "Have you ever had a kitten returned/replaced and why?"

 

[maxtmill]

The buyer should request an all clear by the vet right before delivery of the kitten. This could help with a lot of these problems.

I agree - since bothof my sphynx came to me by air, they were required to have a vet check within 10 days of flying, which is nice.

 

[Mews2much]

I agree also.
All my cats had vet checks before they came and I have the reports from the vets.
I also have the vets phone numbers so I could call them if we needed to.
There are so many breeders that send sick cats.
I only buy from breeders that breed for health first.
It makes very mad when someone gets a sick cat from a breeder and they do not care.
Also make sure there is a health guarantee from the breeder.
I have turned down kittens from a few breeders because they were known to sell cats with herpes ect.

 

[marlene]

Being able to show clear HCM scans does sell kittens. And as a kitten buyer I'll tell you why. A breeder that scans demonstrates a commitment to the health of their cats. As a buyer I feel that if a breeder scans they're also more likely to be willing to invest money in getting proper health care for their kitties, as many breeders that don't scan also cut corners by giving their own shots, doping up sick kittens with medicine they keep stocked in their bathrooms, etc.

I don't think that scanning is the end-line as far as health requirements go. But I will say that I've never considered a breeder that doesn't scan - and never will.

 

[Shauntay]

Please remember just because a breeder shows you a clear HCM scan does not mean your are buying a kitty that may not have any other health problems. It seems like other illness are being over looked because of all the stress on HCM and is very sad to see.
Breeders should have their cats overall health in mind but it seems these days that having a clear HCM scan sells cats. This is very sad for our beloved breed.

I would have to disagree STRONGLY with the implications of this statement. HCM screening is ESSENTIAL in the healthy progression of this breed. I completely concur all cats and kittens should be kept in optimal health and all documentation and vet records pertaining to a kitten undergoing adoption should be readily available to the new owner. It is my opinion ALL reputable breeders scan all the sphynx in their respective programs yearly for any anomalies and/or heart function defects, without exception. Considering the thousands of dollars some breeders invest in scanning their animals, I would think it highly unlikely any such breeder would not be providing adequate general veterinary care. Additionally I have never come across an above stated reputable breeder who does not provide a Veterinary certification of health upon purchase of a kitten and/or retired adult. To me, as well as many (if not all) breeders proactive in HCM screening, general health is correlative with heart health.
If a breeder is actively scanning for HCM, I would naturally require vet records prior to adopting any prospective kitten, that goes without saying. On the other side of the spectrum, I would NEVER adopt from a breeder who does not scan for HCM regardless if every other aspect of their breeding program is impeccable. To me, neglecting to medically screen for a very prevalent genetic disease in a breeding program is unscrupulous. An impeccable breeding program must comprise yearly screening for HCM by a board certified cardiologist.
I do not want potential adopters to conclude a clear fecal sample and perfect blood panel is sufficient medical screening to deem a cat an acceptable breeder. In a perfect world all necessary genetic screening would be obligatory prior to breeding. I feel the number of BYBers and Millers breeding sphynx regardless of heart health (as well as general), and those breeders selling intact kittens is far more sad and destructive for the breed.

 

[Bella07]

I have to completely agree with Marlene and Shauntay on this one. Shauntay explained it perfectly, she took the words right out of my head. Even though there are 2 breeders who live within an hour from my house---both of these breeders do not scan for HCM. As I have said before, this is a big "no-no" in my book, and I am choosing to not purchase a kitten from either of these breeders. As I see it, though expensive, yearly HCM screening exemplifies that a breeder is commited to working towards the betterment of the Sphynx breed---So, I'll only be working with breeders who do indeed scan. Yes, of course, just because a breeder HCM scans doesn't mean that this breeder is "reputable" or will sell you a "healthy" kitten per-say. But, it's something that needs to be done in order to eradicate HCM, particuarly in the Sphynx lines.

 

[Mews2much]

I agree 100%.
I also will not buy from breeder that breeds designer breeds.

 

[susi794]

I don't think ilovemysphynx is saying that HCM scanning isn't important--she's just saying not to forget about all the other evils that are lying in wait to harm our precious babies. Remember all those things too.

 

[ilovemysphynx]

I did not say that scanning is not important or that people should not be aware! I am just saying that it is not the ONLY thing to look for and there are many other things.
And just because you have a clear HCM scan does not mean that you should not look more into the breeder. Just because a breeder had a scan does not mean that they see a vet or that they do not give their own vaccines, just scanning does not make a great breeder there is much more to it than that.
There are breeders that scan but have had cats go to new homes with herpes or giardia, so even though they scanned they are a good breeder sending a kitten to their forever home with one of these? I don't think so.

 

[Shauntay]

I think that everyone should keep in mind that there is more to searching for a breeder than making sure they scan for HCM, although it is a big concern it seems like breeders and buyers are stressing on HCM these days

As I clearly stipulated in my previous post, an echocardiogram is not the entirety in health screening for breeding animals, none the less, a Breeder actively working towards decreasing the prevalence of HCM in Sphynx is far more likely to have due diligence concerning other health care aspects of their breeding programs, then a breeder cutting corners and irresponsibly breeding animals with unknown heart health. Breeders as well as Buyers ARE stressing on HCM these days, AS THEY SHOULD. HCM is a dominant genetically inherited disease. History shows us the difficulties breeders have had to overcome in eliminating recessives, and we are faced with a fatal genetic heart condition with dominant inheritance. The gene pool is highly susceptible to contamination and the prevalence of HCM in the Sphynx breed is cause for alarm. How many members of Sphynx Lair have lost a Sphynx to HCM, or are currently living with a diagnosed pet?

these days that having a clear HCM scan sells cats. This is very sad for our beloved breed.

It is PARAMOUNT all breeding Sphynx (as well as beloved pets imo) have annual echos in order to ascertain the condition and function of the heart. It is, in my respectful opinion, criminal to breed a Sphynx without performing an echo. I agree whole heartedly with Marlene's post.

just scanning does not make a great breeder

I agree, but my point is NOT scanning makes an unscrupulous breeder.

 

[admin]

I think when we quote we should put the information in its entirety, quote" I think that everyone should keep in mind that there is more to searching for a breeder than making sure they scan for HCM, although it is a big concern it seems like breeders and buyers are stressing on HCM these days and forgetting all the basics."
unquote

That being said,

This thread was started due to the recent plague of herpes and other illness we have recently come across on the Lair, some luckily, treatable, and some that are not even curable and the owners will now incur a hefty vet bill for the rest of the pets life, not to mention the animals suffering and discomfort, and in fact most came from breeders whom scan for HCM.

This thread in no way said to me that scanning is not important, just to remember the basics. I have highlighted the parts that I think some have overlooked and in fact is the true basis of this thread!

 

[Bella07]

I think when we quote we should put the information in its entirety, quote" I think that everyone should keep in mind that there is more to searching for a breeder than making sure they scan for HCM, although it is a big concern it seems like breeders and buyers are stressing on HCM these days and forgetting all the basics."unquote

That being said,

This thread was started due to the recent plague of herpes and other illness we have recently come across on the Lair, some luckily, treatable, and some that are not even curable and the owners will now incur a hefty vet bill for the rest of the pets life, not to mention the animals suffering and discomfort, and in fact most came from breeders whom scan for HCM. This thread in no way said to me that scanning is not important, just to remember the basics. I have highlighted the parts that I think some have overlooked and in fact is the true basis of this thread!

Your above words bolded in colors---In all honesty, I don't believe that those are fair statements to make, at all. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion! But, by saying that "most came from breeders whom scan for HCM".......well, it sounds like your shining a negative light on those who indeed scan for HCM.

 

[Shauntay]

Admin, the original post is readily available for any and all to read. I simply posted my opinion corresponding to each statement. I believe I made my personal stand on this matter rather clear;

an echocardiogram is not the entirety in health screening for breeding animals, none the less, a Breeder actively working towards decreasing the prevalence of HCM in Sphynx is far more likely to have due diligence concerning other health care aspects of their breeding programs, then a breeder cutting corners and irresponsibly breeding animals with unknown heart health

Perhaps Ilovemysphynx's choice of words, coupled with the difficulty associated with deciphering intonation from written dialogue lead me, Marlene and Bella07 to similar corresponding posts. Regardless, it is still my personal opinion that a Breeder who is providing (expensive) genetic/health screening for the animals in their program is far more likely to maintain such standards in general health as well.

 

[marlene]

I think it's true that many buyers and breeders are stressing about HCM. As well they should! But I think that buyers are looking at a breeder's scanning practices in conjunction with their other health practices. Just because a breeder scans doesn't mean that buyers aren't inquiring into everything else like shots, illnesses, health guarantees, etc.

I too think it's unfair to claim that most infected kittens came from breeders who scan for HCM. I would like to see statistics that back that up if they exist.

 

[Nofuratu]

I dont understand what we are disagreeing about?
Some breeders dont scan for HCM - that sucks
Some breeders scan for HCM but knowingly sell kittens with herpes - that sucks
Some breeders scan for HCM AND make sure there are no other diseases running rampant in their cattery-thats good!

I thought Admin was just trying to caution people, who may not know a lot about feline medical issues....that they shouldnt assume "oh this person has to be a good breeder because they scan for HCM....so I wont look out for other warning signs...or "I dont need to be cautious and ask for vet records...or go see the litter and make sure they arent running around coughing sneezing and winking their runny eyes".

What if there are breeders that just "say" they scan for HCM:?
Its easy to say on your web site, or to potential buyers " I scan for HCM"
but if the potential buyer doesnt know enough to ask for vet records.......they might just think "this person scans for HCM, therefore they are a good breeder and I dont need to worry about health problems"

 

[Mews2much]

It is true some breeders do lie and say they scan when they do not scan at all.
You can ask for a copy of the scans.
I have done it.

 

[Shauntay]

What if there are breeders that just "say" they scan for HCM:?

Good point Nofuratu, I have it clearly written on my website to not only ask if breeding cats are scanned but to acquire said scans as proof. Any breeder should be willing and ready to provide anyone with these scans.
I got burnt through that exact scenario with my first two pet boys. I never asked for proof, I was overwhelmed and very naive and believed the lies of a very unscrupulous breeder. I have now lost my soulmate to HCM Dec 1st 2010 and have his brother on my lap, also diagnosed with HCM, as a result.

 

[admin]

Your above words bolded in colors---In all honesty, I don't believe that those are fair statements to make, at all. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion! But, by saying that "most came from breeders whom scan for HCM".......well, it sounds like your shining a negative light on those who indeed scan for HCM.

Correct, then respect mine....In my opinion the original thread did not lead me to believe what Shuantay's opinion was. This was just rebutting that because one scans is enough information to think you are getting a healthy kitty free of disease, that is concerning.

I really think you must digest the full thread before replying. I did not say "All breeders who scan for HCM have cats with incurable disease" I said of the recent cases that i am personally aware of that the infected cats had come form breeders who scan for HCM, hence rebutting the "feel safe" decision of thinking a scan means a healthy kitten.

 

[Gullivers Keeper]

My breeder scanned, but Gulliver has HCM, and Bacon came with serious Giardia and worm infestation (but he was free because of Gullivers HCM) and his belly is still not normal I love them both and would not give them up for the world, but I wish I had known then what I know now. HCM screening and the basics, both are so very important!

 

[admin]

I dont understand what we are disagreeing about?
Some breeders dont scan for HCM - that sucks
Some breeders scan for HCM but knowingly sell kittens with herpes - that sucks
Some breeders scan for HCM AND make sure there are no other diseases running rampant in their cattery-thats good!

I thought Admin was just trying to caution people, who may not know a lot about feline medical issues....that they shouldnt assume "oh this person has to be a good breeder because they scan for HCM....so I wont look out for other warning signs...or "I dont need to be cautious and ask for vet records...or go see the litter and make sure they arent running around coughing sneezing and winking their runny eyes".

What if there are breeders that just "say" they scan for HCM:?
Its easy to say on your web site, or to potential buyers " I scan for HCM"
but if the potential buyer doesnt know enough to ask for vet records.......they might just think "this person scans for HCM, therefore they are a good breeder and I dont need to worry about health problems"

Thank you! You got it! Guys please, you are way off base here. Slow down, read ,digest, just saying don't forget the basics. That's it! :Laugh: